Points of Light and the Forgotten Realms

[Fobok]

I haven't read the preview chapter yet, so I won't comment on that. But I have to say that I really don't understand why the timeline advancing is so upsetting to people. It's Forgotten Realms, it's always done that. Time of Troubles, anyone? It's not exactly a new thing. Thus, if you like Forgotten Realms, you should be used to it by now. If you like Forgotten Realms at one particular point of time? Play in that time period. Veer off into your own timeline. If the players at your table don't want to do that, you might want to work with them to come up with a campaign all will enjoy, rather than trying to force them into your viewpoint.

As for me, I *love* that Forgotten Realms continues to advance. That's what keeps me interested in the setting. If they suddenly stopped advancing, or started ignoring the events of the novels, I'd probably stop buying the products. (Forgotten Realms products are the only ones I've bought since 3.5 came out since I'm just, in general, interested in the setting, even if I haven't had a game to play.)

 

[Dire Bare]

I haven't read the preview chapter yet, so I won't comment on that. But I have to say that I really don't understand why the timeline advancing is so upsetting to people. It's Forgotten Realms, it's always done that. Time of Troubles, anyone? It's not exactly a new thing. Thus, if you like Forgotten Realms, you should be used to it by now. If you like Forgotten Realms at one particular point of time? Play in that time period. Veer off into your own timeline. If the players at your table don't want to do that, you might want to work with them to come up with a campaign all will enjoy, rather than trying to force them into your viewpoint.

As for me, I *love* that Forgotten Realms continues to advance. That's what keeps me interested in the setting. If they suddenly stopped advancing, or started ignoring the events of the novels, I'd probably stop buying the products. (Forgotten Realms products are the only ones I've bought since 3.5 came out since I'm just, in general, interested in the setting, even if I haven't had a game to play.)

As amusing as all the bellyaching is to me as well, you should really read the prelude to "The Orc King" that we're all talking about. If this "future" Realms comes to pass (and that's a big IF in my opinion), the changes are totally post-apocalyptic and are very drastic. Much more so than any other novel/RPG event/timeline jump EVAR!

 

[Dire Bare]

Sorry for the sidetrack: The fact is that other than the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer at the very beginning of 3.0, Expedition is the only other product published for the Greyhawk setting by WotC. 7 years between products is not exactly strongly supporting the setting. I think Forgotten Realms published more than two products over the course of 3.X. I never heard an FR author say buy this book to send a message. Oh wait, one did. I can't remember who but it was to push for more fluff/crunch ratio in FR books. Not really the same tho.

Well, in one sense, there were no "Greyhawk" products released for 3rd edition, or at least nothing with the Greyhawk logo. The Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, the D&D Gazeteer (which hardly counts as a separate product), and the Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk are certainly the only 3rd Ed D&D products "specifically" about Greyhawk (that I can remember).

But we also got a lot of Greyhawk support in Dragon and Dungeon Magazines, which while not a WotC direct product, were WotC licensed and official products. Also, the "implied" setting of the entire game was Greyhawk, at least at first. Later it did morph to the "sorta-but-not-Greyhawk" which we are gonna see more of in 4e.

However . . . so what? Some folks act like it's WotC's duty to put out official Greyhawk products on par with FR and Eberron releases. Why? I mean, sure it'd be cool and all. But the level of hostility I've seen on the boards regarding "lack of Greyhawk support" astounds me sometimes.

Also, noone associated with "Ruins of Greyhawk" or WotC ever said or implied, "Hey, if you don't buy this book, you'll never see an official Greyhawk product again." One of the authors WAS ASKED directly by a fan if the release of "Ruins" meant a return of official Greyhawk support. The author's answer was basically, "too soon to tell" and that this product was, in part, testing the waters. I wish he'd never said that, because sooooo many have taken it out of context and exaggerated the meaning.

Like it as not, Greyhawk just isn't that popular. It's the original setting, it is cool, but it just ain't all that popular. Takes a backseat to the Realms, Dragonlance, and probably even Eberron. Why would WotC pour major resources into a relatively unpopular setting, no matter how cool and "iconic" it is?

Having said that, WotC does have a Greyhawk forum in their 4e section of Gleemax. This implies they are at least considering releasing official 4e Greyhawk material . . . we'll see.

My favorite setting is Mystara, from the OD&D Basic and Expert boxed sets (and beyond). Talk about no support!!! But I'm okay with that. I just steal the good ideas from the current products and use them in my own Mystara campaign!

 

[an_idol_mind]

I haven't read the preview chapter yet, so I won't comment on that. But I have to say that I really don't understand why the timeline advancing is so upsetting to people. It's Forgotten Realms, it's always done that. Time of Troubles, anyone? It's not exactly a new thing. Thus, if you like Forgotten Realms, you should be used to it by now. If you like Forgotten Realms at one particular point of time? Play in that time period. Veer off into your own timeline. If the players at your table don't want to do that, you might want to work with them to come up with a campaign all will enjoy, rather than trying to force them into your viewpoint.

As for me, I *love* that Forgotten Realms continues to advance. That's what keeps me interested in the setting. If they suddenly stopped advancing, or started ignoring the events of the novels, I'd probably stop buying the products. (Forgotten Realms products are the only ones I've bought since 3.5 came out since I'm just, in general, interested in the setting, even if I haven't had a game to play.)

The Time of Troubles was a 10 year jump that combined with the Horde. The 3rd edition Realms, for all their big events, has advanced at 2 years of game time per 5 years of real time, or thereabouts. That's a pretty significant difference than a 100-year jump that destroys most of the civilizations of the Realms and kills off most of the NPCs. If WotC does that, they're basically taking the things current fans love about the Forgotten Realms and throwing them right out the window.

 

[Tharen the Damned]

Apocalypse in the Realms?

Well, aside from the few hints in Salvatores Book, there might be some other, more technical and financial reasons:

1) 4th Edition will be a new Edition not an update. The designers more than once stated, that it is very difficult to transfer PCs from 3x to 4th. It would be equally difficult to transport the hundreds of major and lesser NPCs over from 3rd and give a reason, why their abilities are now different then they were before (eg. Obould will most likely be a Monster without class levels and therfore different to the Obould we see now).
It is easier to kill off most of the Iconics and start only with a few well loved (and cheesy) NPCs like Drizzt and Elminster.

2) As was said before, the Realms are mostly explored and many products from all editions cover the same ground (the North, Waterdeep and Undermountain for example). Cleaning the slate and starting with new empires and organisations give stuff for many new Books.
A 100 year time jump gives enough history and background for these new cities, empires and organisations. 10 years or less would not be enough time for the Realms to develop significantly new structures.

3) New Players and DMs. Just look at the endless supply of Books for the Realms. As a new Player or DM the richness and deepness of the Setting can overawe.
Cleaning up the Realms and starting anew with a big timejump gives newbees an incetive to jump the train. Suddenly the old published material is only OPTIONAL and not any more assumed canon.

Even if this may irk many of the older fans, IMO from a selling point of view an apocalypse in the Realms makes sense.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Put me in the pro-armaggedon camp.

I'd really love to see this happen.

I just don't think there's any richer setting for a deconstruction.

Nor a safer one, with it's huge history any player can play in any flavor of realms they prefer. Adding this one just puts one more course in for the meal.

 

[Samuel Leming]

This Forgotten Realms one hundred years later (FR100yl) could be a good idea. At least from a publisher’s standpoint.

In the Forgotten Realms as they are now, what’s left for them to detail? This isn’t completely a rhetorical question. People say WotC has poked into every corner, but I really don’t know. Given that there’s nothing new to really explore in new setting books, what can they publish? Setting specific adventures? Booklets updating NPC stats to 4th edition? Updated NPC stats could be a good additional feature for DnDInsider, but cranking out books full of them would seem to be a limited publishing strategy.

If not a substantial reboot, what new FR supplements should WotC publish after 4e?

The FR100yl reboot would allow them to review and revisit every area of FR with new material. They’d also be able to address many of the common problems non-FR fans have had with the setting.

WotC will have to look at how many sales they’ll gain from new customers versus how many they’ll lose from disgruntled FR fans. If they can distill enough FR flavor while jettisoning most of the baggage blocking new customers, this could be a win for them.

Setting the 'Event' ten years forward in their current timeline but ninety years before their reboot could be an interesting choice. If WotC supports their 3.5 FR material with online updates it would make it easier for groups in current FR campaigns to just keep playing, either ignoring the reboot or eventually playing through the event.

Sam

 

[Ruin Explorer]

WotC will have to look at how many sales they’ll gain from new customers versus how many they’ll lose from disgruntled FR fans. If they can distill enough FR flavor while jettisoning most of the baggage blocking new customers, this could be a win for them.

Unless the 4E realms is truly a "travesty", they'll lose about four customers in the long run, I suspect.

I'm a long-term FR fan, and I think this is a very good idea. The 2E and 3E Realms have filled up, frankly, with a lot of stupid crap. Stupid overpowered NPCs, stupid overpowered monster collectives that make no sense, just plain illogical stuff, and places that have near-zero "adventuring value", like Cormyr. The Forgotten Realms, is, at it's heart a very D&D setting - it's a world with multiple layers of forgotten cultures/empires, with more ruins to explore than you possibly ever could, and it's seen empires and kingdoms rise and fall constantly.

Having a few of the current kingdoms and cities fall is not going to "ruin" the setting or "destroy it's flavour" - not at it's core. What it is going to do, potentially, is take it back to more of it's 1E flavour, rather than the distinctly fruity mid-2E stuff, or the overdetailed, organisation-obsessed 3E nonsense.

Anyway, Ruin Explorer supports more ruins to explore, obviously. If those runs are the ghost-haunted ruins of Waterdeep, all the better! Maybe we can kick around Khelben's skull, or fight his lich or something? That'd be nice

 

[humble minion]

Having read the sample chapters (and assuming that they accurately represent 4e FR, since I can't imagine what Salvatore thinks he's playing at otherwise), I'm really not a fan of the whole business to be honest.

According to my taste in campaign settings, there's a fair bit wrong with the current Realms, I have to admit. Too disorganised, too many epic-level NPC heroes about the place, too many drow and subraces of elves, the most silly and hard-to-take-seriously set of evil gods going around, and - the big one - FAR too damn many massive setting upheavals detailed only in the novel lines. I'd think twice about running a game there, and even if I did give it a go, I'd be staying far, far away from the overdone 'core' regions of Cormyr, the Dalelands etc. A bit of creative reorganisation was indeed probably in order.

But from what I've gathered from the sample chapters, the changes have been so vast and massive that it's hard to see the Realms any more. Make no mistake, if even a third of what Drizzt goes on about in this chapter comes to pass in the campaign setting, this reboot makes the Avatar trilogy look like small bikkies. We're more talking something of the scope of the Dragonlance Chaos War, or one of the other innumerable setting reboots that have tortured poor old Krynn over the past decade or so. And we all know exactly how successful they have been.

I hope i'm not going off prematurely here (Premature formation of an opinion? On a messageboard? I am shocked - shocked! ), but I'm a little worried that in the effort to points-of-lightify FR, WotC runs the risk of making FR not very much resemble FR any more. Sure, you can keep the place names, and Drizzt might still be around, and it's hard to see Larloch going anywhere, but the Realms have a very distinct feel to them, and this may be harder to preserve. It occurs to me that if WotC wanted a showcase setting for 'points of light' they'd have been better off actually sitting down and writing one from scratch, rather than hammering FR (in all its eccentric, lighthearted, hail-fellow-well-met, kitchen-sink glory) into what seems to be a very awkwardly-fitting mould.

I hope i'm wrong, of course.

 

[Tharen the Damned]

I hope i'm not going off prematurely here (Premature formation of an opinion? On a messageboard? I am shocked - shocked! ), but I'm a little worried that in the effort to points-of-lightify FR, WotC runs the risk of making FR not very much resemble FR any more. Sure, you can keep the place names, and Drizzt might still be around, and it's hard to see Larloch going anywhere, but the Realms have a very distinct feel to them, and this may be harder to preserve. It occurs to me that if WotC wanted a showcase setting for 'points of light' they'd have been better off actually sitting down and writing one from scratch, rather than hammering FR (in all its eccentric, lighthearted, hail-fellow-well-met, kitchen-sink glory) into what seems to be a very awkwardly-fitting mould.
I hope i'm wrong, of course.

I think you are right humble minion. I only own some FR products and read through some of the Books but even I can see that these Realms won't be the old 1ed/2ed/3xed any more.
The feel of the few pages of the new Salvatore Book almost read like a crossover between Greyhawk and FR.
Notice something?
WoC know that there are many gamers who like Greyhawk.
Why not change FR so that bot "Greyhawkers" and "Realmers" get something they like?
Crazy idea?