D&D 5E Poisons in Next

[Uller]

First off, there are a lot of "D&DNext is gonna suck because..." threads. This is not one of those. I am enjoying D&DNext immensely.

I've played through a few Next adventures and have encountered a few instances where poison is used. It every instance it has simply been a Con save or take NdM poison damage. No ongoing effects. No secondary saves...it leaves me feeling...'meh'...I have done at least one "save or die" with a reasonably low DC (8).

AD&D had a poison types table. IIRC, it was basically the same (save or take damage, save or die, take damage even if you make a save, die if you don't, etc).

I think the game needs a "poisoned" condition. For instance, in our Murder in Baldur's Gate game, the party has enraged the Guild so some assassins have made some attempts to kill PCs. I'm the sort of DM that when a powerful enemy is trying to kill you, they don't mess around. So I introduced a poison used by one of the assassins:

On a hit, the victim..err...target must make a Con save where the DC is 8+INT+Prof Bonus of the Assassin (I figure using poisons is more an intelligence thing than a dex...but I could see dex being used (it takes some care to apply it correctly). On a failed save the target takes 1d4 poison damage and is Poisoned with a duration of 4d6 hours and a secondary save every hour.

Poisoned: A poisoned character cannot heal by any non-magical means until the poison is neutralized either with an antidote or magic such as protection from poison. The poison has a time period and a duration. The PC must make a new save for every time period or suffer the damage over again. If he passes the save by more than 10 or if he rolls a natural 20, he is no longer poisoned.

Poisons can do HP damage, reduce ability scores, force the victim to take disadvantage on attacks, impose other conditions (weakened, blindness, unconscious, paralyzed, slowed, etc). I know what folks are going to say...The DDN designers won't do this because it isn't 'fun' to play a character that has these penalties imposed on him for an extended time. That's fine...but I'm kinda old school and parties should be prepared for poison. It's part of the world they live in.

 

[Alzrius]

First off, there are a lot of "D&DNext is gonna suck because..." threads. This is not one of those. I am enjoying D&DNext immensely.

I've played through a few Next adventures and have encountered a few instances where poison is used. It every instance it has simply been a Con save or take NdM poison damage. No ongoing effects. No secondary saves...it leaves me feeling...'meh'...I have done at least one "save or die" with a reasonably low DC (8).

I dunno, it sounds to me like you're saying that D&D Next is going to suck...the poison out.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I do think there is a place in the game for incorporating some type or format of the "disease track" (for lack of a better term) concept into the game. Because there are many incidents wherein using a track to represent longer-term character difficulty would be useful I think. Disease, obviously. Poison. Starvation/Thirst/Exhaustion. Geas/Curse. Etc. Anything that should reduce character effectiveness not on the individual fight (or encounter) level, but on the long-term level. Things that require not just a Rest of some type or a Cure Wounds to remove... but another type of Remove spell, or a removal from the situation that is causing the problem, or a questing or duty to perform to eliminate it.

To me, hit points cannot and should not try to be the sole indicator of character problem or difficulty. Because you lose a lot of very interesting variance in design and concept by just using the removal or gain of hit points (and in parallel the removal or gain of hit dice). A wider variety of mechanics to incorporate and overcome (so long as they're not overwhelmingly difficult to grasp and use) make the game more interesting in the long run. And the Disease Track (or Condition Track or whatever you want to call it) has been a good methodology to use in the past and I think could be used again.

 

[Li Shenron]

...but I'm kinda old school and parties should be prepared for poison. It's part of the world they live in.

I have long ago lost all hopes to see poisons well-treated in a published RPG. All treatments just suck, the newer the edition, the worse and more boring the treatment. I am just going to totally ignore whatever ridiculous rules for poisons they come up with. That's just because designers are only focused on the concept of "poisoned weapons, that should have an effect confined to the current battle". Just bleah... it's not even the rules that sucks, it's the concept itself that is as trivial as just another name for damage.

For me, poison has to work as a story device, or I am just not interested. But the point is that there can be rules or at least guidelines for that, it doesn't have to be left to each DM's work to figure it out. The best thing I've ever seen, is an old DM of mine's idea of actually using 3e rules for diseases to represent poisons instead (but with more freedom on effects, time frame, and possible special rules such as specific antidotes).

 

[Dausuul]

That's just because designers are only focused on the concept of "poisoned weapons, that should have an effect confined to the current battle". Just bleah... it's not even the rules that sucks, it's the concept itself that is as trivial as just another name for damage.

I completely agree. Poison should be something that doesn't usually kick in during the current battle! It should be something you struggle with after the fight is over. From a game perspective, it makes poison really distinct and interesting, giving the PCs a chance to respond to it and producing effects that reach beyond the narrow confines of a combat encounter. From a simulation perspective, it's much more realistic. And from a thematic perspective, it encourages the idea that poison is for sneaky, underhanded types who can't win a stand-up fight. The standard tactic for using poison on offense should be, "Hit the enemy with a poisoned weapon, run away and let the poison do its work, then come back and mop up."

 

[Thyrwyn]

For me, poison has to work as a story device, or I am just not interested. But the point is that there can be rules or at least guidelines for that, it doesn't have to be left to each DM's work to figure it out. The best thing I've ever seen, is an old DM of mine's idea of actually using 3e rules for diseases to represent poisons instead (but with more freedom on effects, time frame, and possible special rules such as specific antidotes).

excellent idea - I, too have used poisons as plot devices in the past.

 

[Stalker0]

I liked the ongoing damage save in 4e as a way to treat immediate effect poisons.

 

[Sadras]

If PCs are poisoned and its not obvious that they have been poisoned, I do not let them make their saving throws, I as DM do...
It reduces the meta that way and keeps players on their toes. Also poisons, diseases and the like are treated a little more severe in our campaigns and as others above have pointed out I have found the D&D poisons systems of late lacking. With so many interesting ideas and ways to go its a shame the designers haven't been a little more innovative and daring.

 

[Blackbrrd]

On a hit, the victim..err...target must make a Con save where the DC is 8+INT+Prof Bonus of the Assassin (I figure using poisons is more an intelligence thing than a dex...but I could see dex being used (it takes some care to apply it correctly). On a failed save the target takes 1d4 poison damage and is Poisoned with a duration of 4d6 hours and a secondary save every hour.

Poisoned: A poisoned character cannot heal by any non-magical means until the poison is neutralized either with an antidote or magic such as protection from poison. The poison has a time period and a duration. The PC must make a new save for every time period or suffer the damage over again. If he passes the save by more than 10 or if he rolls a natural 20, he is no longer poisoned.

I really like this idea as it should create some tension: can the character outlast the poison? Does he need help? If he needs help, how fast does he need it?

It kind of reminds me of the effects the ring had on Frodo in LoTR, he was slowly but surely losing willpower. He could be helped by eating elvish food and so on, and would succumb easier to it if treated harshly, like by the orcs, or being close to Sauron.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I like using poison (both manufactured and produced by monsters) and i am not fond of the over reliance on pure damage poison effects currently have in D&D Next. Yes they're easier and faster to proceed and need less follow-up, but they're too samey and offer less diversified and dynamic effect IMO. I'd like poison to inflict more conditions as effect, instead of or in addition to damage. Poisons that reduce movement, paralyze, stun, intoxicate etc.. all makes it more interesting IMHO.