D&D 5E (2014) [Poll] 15 Minute Adventuring Day, 5e, and You

[Minigiant]

Vs Kobolds: No. LOL Kobolds.
Vs Hobgoblins: YES!
Vs Orcs: Attempted to. Died during escape.

 

[billd91]

My players have been pretty much able to clear out one cave per day so far. That feels pretty reasonable to me. Man, those orcs pump out a lot of damage when they charge in...

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Yes, and every time it was because we ran out of healing, not because we went nova. The solutions (for me at least) seems to be more healing.

For the record, for this thread, the 15 minute adventuring day is defined as having the party blow their daily resources in a few encounters, and then retreat to rest for the night, to come back the next day at full bear and repeat the process, so that the party is almost never at less than full resources when they have to have an encounter.

Reading this I wonder if part of the disagreement comes down to definitions. I don't think that a 15 minute day requires that the PCs "blow their daily resources." I think it happens any time that the party chooses to rest for metagame reasons even if they would rather continue going for roleplaying reasons.

The "15-minute workday" was not observed at any of them (although two of them ended in TPKs.)

Another comment that makes me wonder if we are defining things differently. How long did it take before the TPK? If it was only a few encounters I'd call it a 15 minute day.

 

[LostSoul]

I know my groups haven't encountered that, but I've been very explicit about the "If you let them escape, they will get reinforcements, and this will snowball and maybe decimate you," nature of the adventure, basically just telling them that (they're playing trained adventurers, after all!).

1. Random Encs:
2. Players roll the Random Encounters!:
3. Cumulative Random Encounters:
4. Other NPCs and plots may still go on.
5. Enemies encountered act:

How much of this is part of the playtest material? Here's what I recall from memory:

I think that it says the caves will reinforce after 1d4 weeks, but that's a lot of rests.

There are no wandering monsters as far as I'm aware - well, there are a few within the caves, but that just keeps the PCs from resting within a populated cave.

I think it mentions giving the PCs and NPCs goals, but does it offer any advice on how to balance timelines arising from those goals with the rest system?

It says that the NPCs will react to what the PCs do.

 

[Minigiant]

Man, those orcs pump out a lot of damage when they charge in...

You can say that again.

After a tussle with those guys, 15 minute workdays sound really smart.

 

[mlund]

But sweet, it seems like we're getting some reports from the minority that seems to be having 'em!

Actually, no, that's not sweet at all. The argument has never been that the majority of games and tables experience a 5 minute work day or a 15 minute adventuring day or whatever. When you get a 30% ratio of screw-ups you've got a system failure.

I'm seeing a common thread of "One big grindy explosion of monsters sucked down ALL of our healing/HP's!" Does that seem accurate?

Well, it wasn't a huge explosion and it didn't eat all the healing / HPs or dailies. It wasn't like the party pulled the whole dungeon or zone down on their heads at once either. About 40% of party resources disappeared in less than 8 rounds of combat. 8 rounds * 6 seconds per round = 48 seconds.

They then thought to themselves, "Hey, another one of those and we might die," and noted that they had no pressing need to get themselves killed, so they decided they wanted to take an extended rest.

To which I had to reply (and I paraphrase), "Come on guys, it's just a play-test. If you die its good data and you're not married to these characters anyway." Then they decided to go along.

Most of the people in my group like to win at games. Maybe one or two are super-paranoid because they played a lot of NetHack. Regardless, as gamers they are not the sort of people to have their party die because they took an unnecessary risk for 0 reward.

That flaw (unnecessary risk for no reward) is a default characteristic of the game system that the DM has to paper over or lump it.

- Marty Lund

 

[DEFCON 1]

No, our group that I DM'd did not have a 15-minute workday. There are several reasons why we didn't that I can pinpoint to:

1) The party has always been about 6 or 7 players, so they have a bit more strength at their disposal.

2) First monsters encountered were the kobolds, and most of them were handled via roleplaying (intimidation and awe). The wizard only blew one daily spell (Sleep) in these series of encounters, the clerics were fine.

3) Second monsters were the goblins, and they were handled relatively easily several groups at a time, and the ogre that was brought into combat by the goblins was bribed to stand down. Damage suffered was mainly fixed via Hit Die and one or two of the clerics' heals.

Party went back to town and rested.

4) Within town the cleric with the Healer theme made several Potions of Healing and another Healer's kit. I also reconfigured the asinine armor cost table to more closely match the 4E one (because the costs for armor in playtest table is just stupid) and thus several players could upgrade their armor to the next level and get another point of AC out of it.

5) Upon returning, the hobgoblins were dealt with over several combats. Spells were diligently used (the wizard relied on MM and Ray of Frost more often than blowing Sleep and Burning Hands, and the cleric of Moradin used only one spell in any specific fight)

6) The gnolls were mainly avoided using skill work.

7) Several of the undead that roamed the valley at the end of the day from the cultist' caves were picked off by Magic Missile / Radiant Lance, as well as applicable avoidance skills (running, climbing, jumping, stealth etc.)

Party went back to camp and rested.

8) Party is beginning the foray into the cultist caves, so we'll see how far in they get.

*****

Basically, through the use of skills, roleplaying, and intelligent play during combat (plus admittedly having a bit more firepower than most groups, although I did up the monster counts to compensate), everything that has happened has been "in-game" several hour affairs.

 

[billd91]

Well, it wasn't a huge explosion and it didn't eat all the healing / HPs or dailies. It wasn't like the party pulled the whole dungeon or zone down on their heads at once either. About 40% of party resources disappeared in less than 8 rounds of combat. 8 rounds * 6 seconds per round = 48 seconds.

They then thought to themselves, "Hey, another one of those and we might die," and noted that they had no pressing need to get themselves killed, so they decided they wanted to take an extended rest.

Well, they are neophyte adventurers. Being a bit fragile compared to how they will be at higher levels and even relative to the lowly humanoids they're fighting is to be expected.

Most of the people in my group like to win at games. Maybe one or two are super-paranoid because they played a lot of NetHack. Regardless, as gamers they are not the sort of people to have their party die because they took an unnecessary risk for 0 reward.

That flaw (unnecessary risk for no reward) is a default characteristic of the game system that the DM has to paper over or lump it.

I don't think I would call it no reward. My players are definitely feeling the reward from adventuring in the Caves of Chaos. They're gotten two magic weapons already and some other valuables after two game days of adventuring and tangling with orcs.

I don't see players not really meshing with the motivations of their characters or with the game genre as a flaw. I think it does more to suggest that the game in question really isn't a good fit for that player. I'm not a good fit for most Cyberpunk games, nor for Vampire at all. I can't get into the double-dealing mercenary/corporate of Cyberpunk, nor do I feel much identification with vampires.

 

[CleverNickName]

How long did it take before the TPK? If it was only a few encounters I'd call it a 15 minute day.

One of the TPKs occurred shortly after the party encountered the ogre (a failed ambush, mostly the result of bad dice rolls.) I think it was only the third or fourth combat encounter of the session...we had been gaming for a little more than two hours.

The other TPK was in the hobgoblin cave, where the leader and his bodyguards just beat down the party. I don't remember how many encounters it was before the TPK here, though...it was however many encounters it takes to get to the "grand finale" of the hobgoblin cave. Four, maybe five? We had been gaming for about two hours before this TPK, as well.

 

[mlund]

I don't think I would call it no reward. My players are definitely feeling the reward from adventuring in the Caves of Chaos. They're gotten two magic weapons already and some other valuables after two game days of adventuring and tangling with orcs.

I think I may not have communicated my point clearly.

There's a reward to fighting in the Caves. The reward was the same whether the characters increased their risk of failure by pressing on after burning resources or fought for 48 seconds and then decided to bug out and take rest.

There's no carrot (increased reward) for taking more risks and it takes the DM papering over that problem in the system to provide a sufficient stick (increased risk/cost) to discourage "playing it safe."

That's the bug in the system.

- Marty Lund