D&D General Poll: How tough should 20th Level Fighters be? (MCU edition)

[Mordhau]

A Fighters competence is NOT dependent on Magic Items.

As for flying, several magical items let you do just this, including common items, and several races, or your Wizard gets you up there if (for some strange reason) you cant yourself fly by the time you're a high level PC.

IME, by mid level, all PCs can fly.

!!!

 

[Flamestrike]

!!!

Thor, Iron Man and Falcon (and yes, even Doctor Strange via his cape) can only fly thanks to items.

Do you play in games without magic items?

 

[Mordhau]

Edit:Nevermind.

 

[Rogerd1]

Thor, Iron Man and Falcon (and yes, even Doctor Strange via his cape) can only fly thanks to items.

Do you play in games without magic items?

Doesn't mean they should all be able to fly though.
One, maybe two, but all - not really.

DnD is all about fantasy supers, but low level such that it would cover DC tv Flash type villains.

EDIT: Epic Legacy Core Rulebook
This tried really hard to emulate some MCU stuff, such as Hulk's clap, and doesn't really succeed overly well although I would need to re-read it again to be sure.

To actually cover MCU you need to play a supers game (the one I linked previously may work?), and DCEU, definitely waaaay beyond DnD to emulate as is.

You need Champions, M&M, Prowlers and Paragons, Omni Supers (Godsend Agenda) etc to fully emulate full MCU & DCEU. (Yes this is a tangent).

 

[Gammadoodler]

Thor Odinson, Storm Herald Barbarian 20
S 28 D 14 C 24 I 10 W 12 Ch 14
Move: 40', HP: 285, AC: 20
Feats: GWM, Tavern Brawler
Gear: Hammer of Thunderbolts (Maul), Belt of Giant Strength (worn, not attuned), Gauntlets of Ogre Power (worn, not attuned), +3 Half Plate, Ring of Air elemental command.

Not unreasonable for a 20th level PC, and he has items that are roughly on par with the MCU version.

He's flying, throwing lightning around, hurling his hammer, and is quite literally stronger than a Balor, and cant roll less than 28 on a Strength Ability check.

As for masonry, a 10' x 10' Stone wall has an AC of 17 and 27 HP

Roll20

Mr Odinson deals a minimum of 26 points of damage per swing thanks to GWM (at +11, with advantage). Heck, he could punch the thing down in 2 punches.

On his turn he walks (or flies) to the wall, smashes it down, keeps going, and clobbers the thing on the other side.



Exponentially more capable. An Ogre would be a tough fight for Thor at 1st level.

At 20th level, he could destroy 20 Ogres without breaking a sweat.

Aaand without gear? Aaaaand hp set as equal? Aaaaand actually addressing the 5th level and 11th level comparisons solicited?
Maybe just generally engaging with the spirit of the comparison.

Gear is not a class feature. If WOTC published "Gauntlets of monken invincibility and infinite spellcasting" it is no reflection on monk class progression. Put all the same gear you've listed on an 11th barbarian or fighter, and I submit you've got a character who is not meaningfully less capable beyond the ability to take a punch.

But hey, all you have done is put a combination of some of the most powerful gear published, on the martial class with one of the best capstones and then make sure to have that character at max level to get that capstone.

This is certainly a fair representation of what most high level martials can expect.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Do you play in games without magic items?

I mean, 5e loudly trumpeted that it could be played without them, took away the ability to craft them, and took way too long to give them prices while also hilariously half-assing that, so I don't see this as so far-fetched.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Thing is a 20th level fighter should not be approaching anything like the Avengers - that is why there are 5e supers games.

This is why fighters will always suck. Because 20th level wizards are definitely Avengers material.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

DMs are forcing people to play Fighters now?

You my friend, just jumped the Shark.

Its the button masher class you hand your kid brother because he's not experienced enough to handle a "real" character. This mentality is ingrained in D&D from Gygax, who intended it as a beginner crap class the "real players" moved on from.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

A Fighters competence is NOT dependent on Magic Items.

He just gets the most benefit from them (compared to any other class) and they open up options for him that he doesnt normally have.

He can quite easily be pumping out 100 damage per round at will at 20th level. All day long. Thats exceedingly competent.

This argument about Fighters sucking just isnt backed up in any campaign with a competent DM.

That's like saying a broke person benefits the most from finding a $20 so they are balanced against billionaires. It doesn't put them on par with one of WOTC's pet classes.

20th level may as well not exist. Look at, say 10th level, where the valor bard gets the same number of attacks and 5 levels of spells. Or the paladin. That damage also relies on feats, which are optional and the ones that allow that (Sharp Shooter/GWM) are the ones DM's whine about. It also requires a specific build (ugh). Sword and board? Dual Wielders?

Fighters need items/abilities baked into their chassis, rather than relying on DM charity. Wizards get to pick their spells, rather than relying on scroll placement in adventures.

 

[Rogerd1]

This is why fighters will always suck. Because 20th level wizards are definitely Avengers material.

They are not Avengers material either, their spell use is far too limited.
To even get close to this, you need to remove spell slots and have something akin to power points, and a lot of them to do this. But even so, the spells are nowhere near the level they operate at.

DC tv Flash, absolutely.
A few spells may, and I say may, scratch some Avengers levels. But as a whole, not even they do it under standard 5e.
Having had a look at S5E, it is a bit disappointing in that it has essentially used spells as powers, with only a few changes, and spell slots too boot. However Mystic's at each level can use certain spells as often as they want, i.e. infinitely, allowing a somewhat greater semblance of matching superhero tropes.

I am currently looking at Capes & Crooks.

Its the garbage button masher class you hand your kid brother because he's not experienced enough to handle a real character. This trash mentality is ingrained in D&D from Gygax, who intended it as a beginner crap class the "real players" moved on from.

What Fighters really need is access to minor powers like those from old Runequest, or Legend, and Gurps Martial Arts. This would certainly make them more interesting, and better to play.