D&D General Poll: How tough should 20th Level Fighters be? (MCU edition)

[Zubatcarteira]

There's some pretty ridiculous stuff in the game, like characters being able to survive the Scroll of the Comet, basically a small nuke, and survive being bitten by moon-sized monsters, which is more what'd you expect comic Thor or Hulk to do.

They can also die to much, much weaker things, so not much logic in there, but you can throw some stuff in the game RAW in regards to surviving crazy attacks or killing immensily durable things. The issue for me is more just things like lifting, grappling big monsters, damaging the envinronment, etc, that they're just really bad at.

 

[Mordhau]

I have a hard time seeing a 20th level Fighter as Thor or the Hulk.

Faced with an army of minions to fight Thor throws his hammer in their midst and adds a Call Lightning to it, Hulk slams the ground so hard he causes a n earthquake or rips a tree out of the ground and mows them down a dozen at a time or just throws a building at them.

A 20th level Fighter kills a minioon with his sword, then he kills the next one with his sword, then he kills the next one with his sword...

Faced with a situation Thor and Captain America adjust their approach to fit the situation. The Fighter is good with single target damage, faced with an approach in which single target damage is not the best strategy he....

...makes use of single target damage.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Heh. Classes are balanced...

~The ranger's monocle pops out and rolls under the wizard's Best At Sex and Also Everything Else Trophy.~

 

[Cadence]

Seeing as the classes are balanced now, as is, I would hazard a guess that that powers like that would be a little unbalancing wouldn't you agree?

I would have thought so. But the thread that inspired this one seemed to have people who thought wizards were Dr. Strange level so the fighters should be Thor level.

 

[Mordhau]

Very well... Then neither should the Wizard. Levels have to be similar or they're meaningless.

Honestly we should just chop the high end of the game off as a dead loss. It was clearly only ever really intended as aspirational anyway.

 

[Mordhau]

A Fighters competence is NOT dependent on Magic Items.

He just gets the most benefit from them (compared to any other class) and they open up options for him that he doesnt normally have.

He can quite easily be pumping out 100 damage per round at will at 20th level. All day long. Thats exceedingly competent.

This argument about Fighters sucking just isnt backed up in any campaign with a competent DM.

And if he needs to fly, or teleport or planeshift or any other of a number of myriad things that a wizard can do easily by late game?

If it can't be solved by hitting it with a sword, the Fighter doesn't have anything he didn't have in the early game, except for magic items he may have found.

A hammer is a very versatile tool if everywhere you go you find nothing but nails.

The fighter is balanced with the wizard in combat. Assuming that the combat takes place somewhere flight isn't an issue, assuming that the number of enemies are not to great to make single target damage inneffective (so less than 10 really). assuming that the fighter has found a magic weapon to allow him to damage him things etc.

I think people seriously fail to understand how a lot of the criticism of the Fighter in 3rd edition was never really addressed.

This was the definition of Tier 4 in 3rd edition:

"Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well."

Fighters were Tier 5 then so they've moved up a little.

 

[CleverNickName]

I honestly don't know why Marvel hasn't tried to put advertisements on the Hulk. He's essentially a giant banner.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

booooooooo

 

[Flamestrike]

And if he needs to fly, or teleport or planeshift or any other of a number of myriad things that a wizard can do easily by late game?

The Wizard burns his resources doing it, or else he goes alone and without the Fighter.

Two of those spells (Plane Shift and Teleport) are simply adventure enablers. They're just expected and planned for means of getting to an adventure locale at high levels, at a cost to the Wizard.

Your DM isnt going to set an adventure on the Astral Plane, if he hasnt turned his mind as to how exactly you get there.

While the Wizard is happy going 'I got you guys there!' the reality of the situation is the DM planned for this, and all he's done is drain the Wizard of a 6th level spell slot.

As for flying, several magical items let you do just this, including common items, and several races, or your Wizard gets you up there if (for some strange reason) you cant yourself fly by the time you're a high level PC.

IME, by mid level, all PCs can fly.

 

[Flamestrike]

If it can't be solved by hitting it with a sword, the Fighter doesn't have anything he didn't have in the early game, except for magic items he may have found.

If it cant be solved by casting a spell, the Wizard doesnt have anything he didnt have in the early game except for magic items...

Seriously, Fighters outpace the Wizard in HP, DPR and spike damage at least double that of Wizards. They don't have the same utility, but you're playing a Fighter; Poking things with swords and taking hits is why you picked the damn class to begin with.

This same thread is posted over and over again, by the same loud minority that cant DM high level play to save themselves (or are in a game with a DM like that). I've literally demonstrated, with actual game play, in this very forum, several times now, how at high level (mid teens) there is absolutely NO difference in power levels between Fighters, Wizards or any other class.

Heck. I'll happily do it again.

I'll run a PBP 15th level One shot, with all published material allowed in, sticking closely to the DMG recommendations on XP per adventuring day and encounter design (as I did the last three times I've done this).

I'll bet anything anyone wants that the classes will be balanced in that PBP.

If any of you 'Wizards rule, Fighters drool' people want to take me up on my offer, let me know.

Lets end this debate once and for all.