D&D 5E Poll: Polymorph Shenanigans

[I'm A Banana]

No worries on that score. If you set a precedent of "magical effects cannot cross the Polymorph boundary" there are plenty of other gamebreaking combos you can create. Rakshasa claws? Ha! Now I'm a giant ape wielding my giant magic sword.

Unfortunately, that would require hands...so that's a no-go according to a strict reading of the spell ("it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech")

When the Rakshasa curses me, it's the ape who is cursed, not the real me. Barbarian dominated by an Aboleth? Instead of Dispelling, just Polymorph instead--it has a better action economy cost. Vorpal sword? Who cares if I'm a limbless crippled giant ape now, it's only temporary. It's not just free temp HP any more, it's a free character. What happens when a Magic Jarred character gets Polymorphed? Does the original soul pop back into the body somehow, or is Magic Jar an exception?

I am pretty OK with most of those "defensive" uses of the spell. I don't have much of a problem with it being used as a high-cost "get out of a status effect free" card, especially because even as a T-rex, your barbarian is probably taking a bit of a nerf with the spell (and with the low mental ability scores, shouldn't be a problem to re-dominate! )

As for Magic Jar - you wouldn't be able to cast it while polymorphed, and since a creature under the effects of polymorph is a beast, you wouldn't be able to use it on someone who had been polymorphed either ("you can attempt to possess any humanoid..."). If you tried to possess someone under the effects of something that can do humanoid, like shapechange, I'd might say that you possess the form that has been shapechanged into. Like, there's some old decrepit wizard who has shapechanged into a comely elfin lass and you use magic jar and then try to possess the comely elven lass (you pervert) and you find yourself possessing a comely elven lass...and are perhaps surprised to find that this is an enchantment you're concentrating on. Since you'd be hitting the natural CHA save of a caster high enough level to cast shapechange, you may now be justifiably concerned about repercussions for stealing the comely elven lass body of an 18th-level spellcaster.

I'm not complaining about this (nothing that happens on the Internet affects my table) but I am pointing out some things that I'm considering as I make my own ruling/theory of Polymorph. There are complexities and broken combos either way.

I think making the barrier a hard one does away with the worst. Using it to wiggle out of an ongoing condition for an hour using your Concentration slot would be a neat trick, but typically less effective than just removing the condition or getting a save or making the condition-inflicter eat a Concentration roll or six, so I don't have many problems with that niche use. But at least you can't stack much on top of the critter you turn someone into to escalate it too high, and you'd have to use your actions in the moment to do it (limiting the "buff before you fight" abuses). It's a high-level spell, so I'm comfortable having it be pretty potent.

 

[Sunseeker]

None of the above.

Agreed. The polymorphed player is inexperienced in the form they are in, I would not allow them to use any class abilities. If you read up on the background of ki, there is a sort of general working of ki but it is both slightly different for every person and also different in animals. A person who has masted their own ki would not be able to properly channel the ki in another body. Especially one so radically different.

 

[DaveDash]

Polymorph by itself is very powerful. It witnessed how powerful it can be last night with a Sorcerer and a Favoured Soul able to twin polymorph each.

(Twin Haste then Twin Polymorph two giant crocodiles fighting in water was particularly over the top I felt).

Adding on class abilities and features makes it quite an OP spell, much like it used to be in earlier editions.

 

[steeldragons]

Just for fun:

Say you've got a 20th level Shadow Monk with Alert, Mobile, and Lucky feats. A sorcerer Polymorphs her into a Tyrannosaurus Rex. Polymorph explicitly says that she loses her mental statistics (Int/Wis/Cha). It hints that she would retain spellcasting capability if spellcasting weren't impossible in that form. It is silent on all other class abilities. Which feats and class abilities would you rule that she retains, if this happened at your table?

-Max

N.b. Shapechange explicitly says that mental ability scores and skill/saving throw proficiencies are additionally retained. It then discusses HP for a while before mentioning that class abilities are specifically retained. While it seems pretty clear to me that the weaker version (Polymorph) should therefore not grant saving throw/skill proficiencies, the way Shapechange is written does not appear to lump class abilities in as things that are retained only with the 9th level version. Hence this thought experiment/poll.

Nopers. Not even a little bit ok. How did you create this poll with "None of the above" not even as a possibility? Did you really think something like this would be allowed/endorsed?

So, if the monk had Empty Body already activated and was also Hasted at the time when the spell was cast, would you have both those effects be cancelled when the Polymorph went off?

Yes indeedy. Buh bye. Not a monk anymore.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

How did you create this poll with "None of the above" not even as a possibility?

Is EnWorld not letting you select zero options on the multiselect? That would explain why everyone is picking "Other" instead of none.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I'd rule that you lose access to class abilities, but that ongoing effects are not suppressed.

For example, the polymorphed monk would lose access to Evasion and Stunning Blow. I would however allow him to retain the benefits of Empty Body provided it was activated before he was polymorphed. And if the monk was hasted then the T-Rex is now hasted. Similarly, negative effects also persist.

As I see it, since Polymorph is transmutation rather than conjuration, you are changing the body's form rather than swapping in an entirely different body. Therefore, if you were hasted before polymorph you are hasted after polymorph, and if you were on fire before polymorph you are still on fire after polymorph.

I'm inclined to be more lenient with other forms of shapeshifting, such as Wild Shape, since the rules for that say that they retain their mental capabilities and class abilities. A Druid/Monk could potentially use most of the abilities listed in the poll (though he'd be incapable of taking the form of a T-Rex, obviously).

 

[steeldragons]

Oh! If Haste is a separate spell effect someone cast on you? Yes, then Haste would still apply. I thought you just meant, like, the Monk's "I'm extra fast" thing. Which would not apply polymorphed...nor would some magic item making you hasted last. But a separate/independent spell effect, yes, that would still be working.

Not one cast by the Monk on themselves (as in the case of a Monk/Sorc or some MC nonsense like that)! Once polymorphed, anything the MONK was doing/could do is gonzo.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

As for Magic Jar - you wouldn't be able to cast it while polymorphed, and since a creature under the effects of polymorph is a beast, you wouldn't be able to use it on someone who had been polymorphed either ("you can attempt to possess any humanoid..."). If you tried to possess someone under the effects of something that can do humanoid, like shapechange, I'd might say that you possess the form that has been shapechanged into.

None of the above. The scenario is:

1.) Fistandantilus Magic Jars into a werebear.
2.) The werebear's soul goes into the Magic Jar.
3.) Raistlin Polymorphs the wearbear into a bumblebee.
4.) Per the hypothetical "magical effects cannot cross Polymorph boundary", Magic Jar ends.

Whose soul is in the bumblebee, and whose soul is in the Magic Jar?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Oh! If Haste is a separate spell effect someone cast on you? Yes, then Haste would still apply. I thought you just meant, like, the Monk's "I'm extra fast" thing. Which would not apply polymorphed...nor would some magic item making you hasted last. But a separate/independent spell effect, yes, that would still be working.

Right, of course a magic item wouldn't keep working--Polymorph says so explicitly. But yeah, I was discussing the implications of Kamikaze Midget's ruling.

 

[steeldragons]

To your Fistandantilus example above...the answer is the werebear.

The ruling I [and I guess KM also?] would make still stands. If Fisty cast the magic jar themselves, and they in turn were polymorphed, then the spell(s) Fisty had cast/had in effect are null/void.

You seem to be having a problem understanding...or just purposely avoiding for the purposes of this thought experiment?...the difference between spells cast on the character being polymorphed and spell cast by the character being polymorphed, and conflating the two. They are not necessarily the same thing and, if not, would not have the same result.

Magic Jar ends. Werebear goes back into his [now bumblebee] body.

I'd probably give/make Fistandantilus trapped in the magic jar for a period of time for the unceremonious spirit/mind whiplash of having his magic kind of ripped out/off of him. Maybe a random chance to have his spirit end up thrown into the ethereal plane or some such...

...doomed to only exist in/through mirrors and other reflective surfaces until he can manage to get the were-bumblebee turned back into a werebear, relearn his magic jar spell, get the werebear someplace he can cast the magic jar on the werebear and, thus, swap his spirit back into werebear form and end the spell "properly" to get back into his own body...which has probably expired from malnutrition/dehydration by then so need to find a new host...Sure. That'll work. What were we talking about?