D&D 5E Poll: Polymorph Shenanigans

[Fanaelialae]

Oh! If Haste is a separate spell effect someone cast on you? Yes, then Haste would still apply. I thought you just meant, like, the Monk's "I'm extra fast" thing. Which would not apply polymorphed...nor would some magic item making you hasted last. But a separate/independent spell effect, yes, that would still be working.

Not one cast by the Monk on themselves (as in the case of a Monk/Sorc or some MC nonsense like that)! Once polymorphed, anything the MONK was doing/could do is gonzo.

I could see that if the spell is concentration based (since it's not entirely clear whether a beast is capable of concentration) but not for independent effects such as Mirror Image. I would rule that those remain, since they're not dependent on the caster.

Similarly for items. I think a potion would still work, even if you consumed it before being polymorphed. On the other hand, a Hat of Disguise would cease to function because it's arguably removed when you absorb it. Similarly, a Mantle of Spell Resistance would also cease to function, since you're no longer wearing it. However, if you used a Mace of Terror to frighten creatures before being polymorphed, I would say that they remain frightened even after polymorph. As a rule of thumb, I would say that if you can drop the item and have it continue to function (or cannot drop the item, as in the case of a potion) then it would continue to function even after you are polymorphed.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

To your Fistandantilus example above...the answer is the werebear.

The ruling I [and I guess KM also?] would make still stands. If Fisty cast the magic jar themselves, and they in turn were polymorphed, then the spell(s) Fisty had cast/had in effect are null/void.

You seem to be having a problem understanding...or just purposely avoiding for the purposes of this thought experiment?...the difference between spells cast on the character being polymorphed and spell cast by the character being polymorphed, and conflating the two. They are not necessarily the same thing and, if not, would not have the same result.

Magic Jar ends. Werebear goes back into his [now bumblebee] body.

I'd probably give/make Fistandantilus trapped in the magic jar for a period of time for the unceremonious spirit/mind whiplash of having his magic kind of ripped out/off of him. Maybe a random chance to have his spirit end up thrown into the ethereal plane or some such...

...doomed to only exist in/through mirrors and other reflective surfaces until he can manage to get the were-bumblebee turned back into a werebear, relearn his magic jar spell, get the werebear someplace he can cast the magic jar on the werebear and, thus, swap his spirit back into werebear form and end the spell "properly" to get back into his own body...which has probably expired from malnutrition/dehydration by then so need to find a new host...Sure. That'll work. What were we talking about?

I'm not having a problem understanding the difference. Yes, this thought experiment is deliberately set up to clearly distinguish between spells cast on/by the Polymorphed character. As mentioned previously, this is exploring the implications of KM's ruling in post #14. Quote:

Yeah. You can haste the t-rex, but the haste you put on the monk isn't working on the T-rex anymore.

It gets messy, as you can see from your own ruling on Fistandantilus the bumblebee-but-not-in-a-bumblebee's-body. Which, incidentally, makes the werebear not-polymorphed-werebear-in-a-bumblebee's-body, which is kind of a backdoor way into exactly the shenanigans you're trying to avoid. Because it could just as easily be a not-polymorphed-monk-in-a-tyrannosaur's-body, only with full Int/Wis/Cha.

Bottom line: I'm a simulationist, and so I'm going to think through the implications of a ruling from both a fiction and mechanical perspective before making one. So far it looks like "you lose class abilities when you Polymorph" is probably workable, but "ongoing spell effects end on Polymorph" is not.

 

[steeldragons]

Yeeeah, no. That's a lot more permissive than I am inclined to be. Magic items, in general, I probably would not have/get 'morphed.

Mental Houserule Note[when it ever comes up]: Polymorph doesn't "absorb" your magic stuff. A potion you consumed prior to morphing? Sure. That can still work...there's the exception to the rule[ing]. This is a polymorph, not wildshape.

But your Hat of Disguise, Mantle of Spell Resistance (ironically) and Mace of Terror are falling to the ground. True to the spell, however, houseruled to absorb things or not, RAW, your polymorphed form can not "activate, use, wield or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment."

I suppose RAW it's simpler to just have all your gear disappear with the spell...but I think I prefer the little bit of "in-[fantasy make believe land] world realism" of having it change your body, not your stuff. Again, this isn't just a "get wildshape free" card.

 

[steeldragons]

It gets messy, as you can see from your own ruling on Fistandantilus the bumblebee-but-not-in-a-bumblebee's-body. Which, incidentally, makes the werebear not-polymorphed-werebear-in-a-bumblebee's-body, which is kind of a backdoor way into exactly the shenanigans you're trying to avoid. Because it could just as easily be a not-polymorphed-monk-in-a-tyrannosaur's-body, only with full Int/Wis/Cha.

Well, no it can't "just as easily be" since the polymorph says, quite clearly, "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast." Why/where are you getting that it should be the monk's[or werebear's] [edit for clarity] Int/Wis/Cha [/edit] in the 'morphed body?

The werebear's "mind/spirit/whatever gets moved in Magic Jar" gets put back in its body...which is now, unfortunately, a bumblebee. It will have the brain of a bee until it regains its own shape (which, as written, really would be as soon as anyone swats/kills it/reduces its HP to 0).

OH! Actually...you can't polymorph a werebear. Shapechangers always make their save against Polymorph...SO the Fistandantalus example is null/void. Someone casts on Fist-in-werebear body....that CAN'T turn him into a bumblebee [or, for in-stroy/humor's sake, I would say they transform into a bee momentarily. Party cheers. Then an instant later, reforms into the werebear body as normal. Party boos/messes their breeches.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Well, no it can't "just as easily be" since the polymorph says, quite clearly, "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast." Why/where are you getting that it should be the monk's[or werebear's] [edit for clarity] Int/Wis/Cha [/edit] in the 'morphed body?

(You can Polymorph shapechangers, you just can't Polymorph them against their will. For the thought experiment it doesn't matter.)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I thought you ruled that Fistandantilus would still have a bumblebee's mind when Magic Jar ended and he was cast back into the Magic Jar. You were pretty clear that at your table the Polymorph would still apply to the werebear's body at that point, and I thought you were therefore ruling that the werebear would keep its own mind in the polymorphed body. Now it sounds like you'd make both Fistandantilus and the werebear have bumblebee minds.

So anyway, the answer to "where are you getting that idea" is "I thought you were saying so in post #30."

I think I'm done with that tangent though: ending spell effects on Polymorph is not coherent and leads the game into a bad state.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Yeeeah, no. That's a lot more permissive than I am inclined to be. Magic items, in general, I probably would not have/get 'morphed.

Mental Houserule Note[when it ever comes up]: Polymorph doesn't "absorb" your magic stuff. A potion you consumed prior to morphing? Sure. That can still work...there's the exception to the rule[ing]. This is a polymorph, not wildshape.

But your Hat of Disguise, Mantle of Spell Resistance (ironically) and Mace of Terror are falling to the ground. True to the spell, however, houseruled to absorb things or not, RAW, your polymorphed form can not "activate, use, wield or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment."

I suppose RAW it's simpler to just have all your gear disappear with the spell...but I think I prefer the little bit of "in-[fantasy make believe land] world realism" of having it change your body, not your stuff. Again, this isn't just a "get wildshape free" card.

We seem to be in agreement on the potion, the mantle, and the hat, but in the case of the mace don't think I quite follow your meaning.

If someone used a Mace of Terror in your game, then dropped it and pulled out another weapon, would you have the fear effect go away? Now, if someone used a Mace of Terror and was then polymorphed (and let's assume we're using your house rule where the magic item falls to the ground) would the fear effect go away?

If no in both cases, then we're in agreement.

I'm pretty sure you're not going to say yes to the former but no to the latter, so I'm ignoring that case.

If yes in the latter case, you're giving polymorph an awful lot of power. Remember that while polymorph can be used as a buff, it can also be a debuff. Making an enemy drop all of its gear is, IMO, more powerful than a 4th level spell ought to be.


Imagine the following scenario:

DM: After many months of hunting the dread lord BBG, he stands before you in his dull black demon plate, the legendary blade of darkness, BFS gripped in his hand. He glowers at you with a malevolence that seems palpable.

Wizard: I polymorph him into a frog.

DM: He fails his save. His demon plate and the BFS fall to the ground.

Rogue: I grab his gear and run away with it. Cunning action.

Fighter: I hit him.

DM: Well, polymorph absorbs 1 point of the damage, but he takes the rest of the damage and now BBG is standing before you looking quite less malevolent, rather startled, and quite naked.

Players in unison: Well, this should be easy!


Not something I feel should be within the purview of Polymorph.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

DM: After many months of hunting the dread lord BBG, he stands before you in his dull black demon plate, the legendary blade of darkness, BFS gripped in his hand. He glowers at you with a malevolence that seems palpable.

Wizard: I polymorph him into a frog.

DM: He fails his save. His demon plate and the BFS fall to the ground.

Rogue: I grab his gear and run away with it. Cunning action.

Fighter: I hit him.

DM: Well, polymorph absorbs 1 point of the damage, but he takes the rest of the damage and now BBG is standing before you looking quite less malevolent, rather startled, and quite naked.

Players in unison: Well, this should be easy!

Not something I feel should be within the purview of Polymorph.

The wizard should polymorph BBEG into a mouse instead of a frog. Then instead of hitting him, the fighter should drown him in a bathtub. The errata'ed PHB is quite clear that the BBEG will still be 0 HP after reverting to his true shape as long as he is still underwater after he reverts.

 

[DaveDash]

I'm not having a problem understanding the difference. Yes, this thought experiment is deliberately set up to clearly distinguish between spells cast on/by the Polymorphed character. As mentioned previously, this is exploring the implications of KM's ruling in post #14. Quote:



It gets messy, as you can see from your own ruling on Fistandantilus the bumblebee-but-not-in-a-bumblebee's-body. Which, incidentally, makes the werebear not-polymorphed-werebear-in-a-bumblebee's-body, which is kind of a backdoor way into exactly the shenanigans you're trying to avoid. Because it could just as easily be a not-polymorphed-monk-in-a-tyrannosaur's-body, only with full Int/Wis/Cha.

Bottom line: I'm a simulationist, and so I'm going to think through the implications of a ruling from both a fiction and mechanical perspective before making one. So far it looks like "you lose class abilities when you Polymorph" is probably workable, but "ongoing spell effects end on Polymorph" is not.

We had a chat at our table about this and don't feel that buffs are removed either.

It makes Polymorph a very powerful debuff and overshadows dispel magic.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The wizard should polymorph BBEG into a mouse instead of a frog. Then instead of hitting him, the fighter should drown him in a bathtub. The errata'ed PHB is quite clear that the BBEG will still be 0 HP after reverting to his true shape as long as he is still underwater after he reverts.

Okay, but it's borderline overkill. He's a fighter stripped of his gear. His AC probably just took a huge dive, and he's dealing 1 + Str unarmed damage. What's the party worried about, that BBEG's going to bleed on them?

Also, if the BBEG catches wind of this tactic (ie, the party used it on his predecessor) he could just drink a potion of water breathing beforehand.

EDIT:
After thinking about it some more, I disagree that it's a given that the errata makes it clear that the BBEG would still be at 0 hp. It says "until he regains his breath". Well, it's completely the DM's call whether the polymorphed form and non-polymorphed form share breath or not. A polymorph form doesn't share the damage of its original form, therefore I think it would be fair for the DM to rule that they don't share breath either. Of course, it would be fair to rule the other way as well. I for one will be ruling it the former way. Cuts down on shenanigans, and if someone wants to buy some time for a drowning person by polymorphing them into a T-Rex, good for them. Could have just as easily been a shark or something, and then drowning would be a complete non-issue.

EDIT EDIT:
Come to think of it, assuming that a mouse uses the same stats as a rat, the BBEG can break polymorph pretty easily if he understands how it works. He just needs to bite himself for 1 dmg while the fighter is trying to drown him and he'll revert to his original form.

 

[I'm A Banana]

None of the above. The scenario is:

1.) Fistandantilus Magic Jars into a werebear.
2.) The werebear's soul goes into the Magic Jar.
3.) Raistlin Polymorphs the wearbear into a bumblebee.
4.) Per the hypothetical "magical effects cannot cross Polymorph boundary", Magic Jar ends.

Whose soul is in the bumblebee, and whose soul is in the Magic Jar?

So here's how I'd understand that chain of events.

1) Now Fistandantilus has the body of a wearbear.
2) The werebear has the body of whatever object is the Magic Jar.
3) Raistlin presumably targets the werebear body that Fistandantilus is now inhabiting, so it it turns into a bumblebee if Fistandanatilus fails the save.
4) Because magic doesn't pass the polymorph boundary, Magic Jar ends and Fistandantilus is back in the magic jar and the werebear is now a bee, and has a powerful sense of loyalty to her queen.

The werebear has not had a very good day.

The wizard should polymorph BBEG into a mouse instead of a frog. Then instead of hitting him, the fighter should drown him in a bathtub. The errata'ed PHB is quite clear that the BBEG will still be 0 HP after reverting to his true shape as long as he is still underwater after he reverts.

I'd rule that after turning back, the critter gets to make new saves to avoid drowning - the rat drowned, not is critter.