D&D 5E Poll: Polymorph Shenanigans

[DaveDash]

I might let them use quite a few of their class abilities. Not because I think the rules allow it, but because it would make me laugh. A T-Rex monk would be hilarious.

We have a Druid/Monk who in wolf form can move some absurd distance.

DM attempted a chase from the DMG... Lasted 6 seconds.

 

[delericho]

Yep, none of the above. Because polymorph in 3e never worked right, and the 5e designers learned the lesson from this.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Put me in the "none" camp.

One thing that hasn't yet been mentioned is that there are other effects in the game that explicitly do allow you to keep some class features. Druid's wildshape, and the 9th-level shapechange spell come to mind, as well as some monster abilities.

The reason that this matters is that if you grant the ability to keep class abilities to polymorph you have just altered the balance between polymorph and other shapshifting abilities. Wildshape is supposed to be quite a bit better than polymorph. With that change, not so much. I don't see that as a desirable outcome.

 

[I'm A Banana]

So, if the monk had Empty Body already activated and was also Hasted at the time when the spell was cast, would you have both those effects be cancelled when the Polymorph went off?

Yeah. You can haste the t-rex, but the haste you put on the monk isn't working on the T-rex anymore. I could see a DM going the other way with concentration spells on this one reasonably - magical effects that someone else is concentrating on could remain in effect (though you'd lose the spell if you cast it on yourself). But for me, it's just simpler to say "This statblock is you now. You can modify it from here on out, but it won't apply when you change back."

I mean, a T-Rex Monk is hilarious and all, but the fun rapidly curves when they're spending 15 minutes recalculating their action plan based on newly powerful class abilities and synergies, and that's nothing I want to worry about.

It also makes the spell an effective debuff - if the monk retains class abilities, why shouldn't the beholder be able to shoot eye-rays from its slug eyes and hover in place? Why shouldn't the banshee be able to wail as long as the chicken had a beak from which a wail could echo forth? You'd turn a potent control spell into something much less effective for disabling monsters. Polymorph has plenty of hilarious still built into it (my favorite use is still transforming a falling character into a killer whale because a killer whale has more HP than your typical terminal velocity damage roll), and a lot of potential flexibility (no cage can hold the mage who can turn into a mouse! Though I hope someone can communicate with beasts because when my mind is mousey I'm probably less interested in escape...), so I'm not worried about this limiting the fun potential too much. Unless your fun is in gamebreaking combos, you should be fine.

However if the spell says you retain your mind, certainly I would let the PC keep her Knowledge proficiencies. Also "spiritual" abilities if any would stay, e.g. if your race is somewhat celestial and has intrinsic defenses against evil.

I think wild shape would be a slightly different scenario, at least in part because you do retain your mental ability scores. But I believe that's part of the advantage of using that class feature over polymorph, and part of why even the combat wildshape is limited to a significantly lower CR than polymorph.

 

[Hussar]

why shouldn't the beholder be able to shoot eye-rays from its slug eyes and hover in place? Why shouldn't the banshee be able to wail as long as the chicken had a beak from which a wail could echo forth?

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?460092-Poll-Polymorph-Shenanigans/page2#ixzz3dVfeA2cF

Those seem to be oddly specific examples.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

One thing that hasn't yet been mentioned is that there are other effects in the game that explicitly do allow you to keep some class features. Druid's wildshape, and the 9th-level shapechange spell come to mind, as well as some monster abilities.

Shapechange was mentioned in the OP as a contrast with Polymorph. Druid wildshape uses essentially the same language as Shapechange: "game statistics" is in a bullet together with Int/Wis/Cha and skill/saving throw proficiencies, but class abilities are treated separatedly from "game statistics."

Dragon Polymorph is... weird. Not only does it allow you to become a human, but unlike the Polymorph spell it doesn't even grant bonus HP. It's not very much like Polymorph at all, it's just a shapeshift.

It also makes the spell an effective debuff - if the monk retains class abilities, why shouldn't the beholder be able to shoot eye-rays from its slug eyes and hover in place? Why shouldn't the banshee be able to wail as long as the chicken had a beak from which a wail could echo forth? You'd turn a potent control spell into something much less effective for disabling monsters. Polymorph has plenty of hilarious still built into it (my favorite use is still transforming a falling character into a killer whale because a killer whale has more HP than your typical terminal velocity damage roll), and a lot of potential flexibility (no cage can hold the mage who can turn into a mouse! Though I hope someone can communicate with beasts because when my mind is mousey I'm probably less interested in escape...), so I'm not worried about this limiting the fun potential too much. Unless your fun is in gamebreaking combos, you should be fine.

No worries on that score. If you set a precedent of "magical effects cannot cross the Polymorph boundary" there are plenty of other gamebreaking combos you can create. Rakshasa claws? Ha! Now I'm a giant ape wielding my giant magic sword. When the Rakshasa curses me, it's the ape who is cursed, not the real me. Barbarian dominated by an Aboleth? Instead of Dispelling, just Polymorph instead--it has a better action economy cost. Vorpal sword? Who cares if I'm a limbless crippled giant ape now, it's only temporary. It's not just free temp HP any more, it's a free character. What happens when a Magic Jarred character gets Polymorphed? Does the original soul pop back into the body somehow, or is Magic Jar an exception?

I'm not complaining about this (nothing that happens on the Internet affects my table) but I am pointing out some things that I'm considering as I make my own ruling/theory of Polymorph. There are complexities and broken combos either way.

 

[Mercule]

As a starting point, I would go with this. ("none")

Then maybe gradually we can allow something to be retained, and test it out that it doesn't cause problems and still makes enough sense narratively.

This. I'm not hard and fast against retaining abilities while polymorphed. Just apply some common sense. In this case, the Monk would have to learn (read: create) a whole new martial style to work with a T-Rex body. That certainly seems like it'd be within the capabilities of a 20th level Monk. It just wouldn't be automatic.

If he wants to spend the time, I'd use the brief training rules on p 187 of the PHB as a starting point. He doesn't need to find an instructor, but he does have to train each class ability separately for each form. I'd modify the time requirements based on how similar the new form is -- a pixie is a much easier adaptation than an aboleth. So, have fun with your years of practice to become a T-Rex ninja.

If I was the player, though, I think it'd be even more awesome to retrain as a ferret. I'd love to see that popping in and out of shadows, doing flurry of blows for d10 damage on each hit. Bonus points if you use magic object resizing rules to put on the belt of storm giant strength after the polymorph. (And, yes, I am the guy who said that auto-loading hand crossbows interfere are too silly.)

 

[Dausuul]

I voted "Other" because the poll does not have a "None of the above" option. Polymorph takes away your character sheet and replaces it with a statblock from the Monster Manual. Nothing carries over. You are now a bog-standard T-rex. With a T-rex's Int score, you should consider yourself lucky if you can remember who your friends are.

If you have magical effects or status effects already active on you, I would say they continue. Otherwise, zilch.

 

[pming]

Holy bejeezuz batman! ><

Check the stars Martha! Looks like we got ourselves a planetary alignment or something...!

So, for 2 pages, virtually everyone is actually agreeing with each other on this? *blink blink blink*

*sniff* ...it's just...just...just so wonderful...



^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[famousringo]

I'd probably allow spell buffs to carry over. Those are granted by an external force and regulated by concentration. Also, you don't want to open the door to the argument that if buffs are negated, so are debuffs. "Hey, now that I'm a T-Rex, I'm no longer cursed and poisoned!"

Perhaps not if they involved shapeshifting, like Alter Self. The latest (or most powerful?) transformation takes precedence.