Pathfinder 1E Polymorph power gaming squashed.

[timASW]

Long time lurker here, anyway I wont bore everyone with a long intro. Basically i have a good player who verges on power gaming that sent me an email detailing how he plans to use polymorph to go wild on the spirit of the rules.

Naturally as DM I cant allow this and I'm sure he's going to complain about it. So I'm mainly looking for feedback on how I solved it in anticipation of his bringing it up again on Sunday.

Here's his original email to me........

"My character wants to go on a quest for a caster to cast some polymorph spells to permanently transform the party to more deadly creatures (by means of polymorph greater and then polymorph any object cast both on same creature). cost 2350 for both spells once. can get spells very large settlement only core says. try get party put current loot towards spells. want warn you.

p.s. sorry about word use. broen eybourd. can't use certan letters."

To which I responded..........

"Umm yeah.... I'm not gonna allow any powergaming by abusing the broken ass polymorph rules.

1st off the HP component of the spell means none of the meat tanks could be permanent anyway because they have more then 50 HP. And I'm gonna rule thats an overriding clause of the spell.

Also in the description it says that it cant duplicate special properties of things like cold iron. Which I'm gonna rule extends to supernatural and spell like abilities for critters.

So if you wanted to turn the wizard into a bear or a gorilla, okay. But nothing with supernatural powers or defenses and no one over 50 hp at full. "


Thx in advance for any tips, advice, etc.

 

[Darkhaunter]

Wow, are all your other players on board with his idea, or is it just him? If the rest of the players don't go along with this then it will be a moot point and you won't have to deal with it.

I think your response is good -- firm and explains your reasoning. I also don't understand how he plans to use Polymorph Any Object on the PCs -- does this work on living things? Is he an argumentative type or does he accept your game master judgements?

You could also make it very difficult for him to find any casters high enough to cast Polymorph Any Object.

Of course, the best thing to do would probably just be to say to the whole group, "Look guys, I have a blast GMing this game, but I'm not interested in GMing a bunch of off the wall stuff like an entire group of polymorphed PCs." or something along those lines.

 

[timASW]

Wow, are all your other players on board with his idea, or is it just him? If the rest of the players don't go along with this then it will be a moot point and you won't have to deal with it.

I think your response is good -- firm and explains your reasoning. I also don't understand how he plans to use Polymorph Any Object on the PCs -- does this work on living things? Is he an argumentative type or does he accept your game master judgements?

You could also make it very difficult for him to find any casters high enough to cast Polymorph Any Object.

Of course, the best thing to do would probably just be to say to the whole group, "Look guys, I have a blast GMing this game, but I'm not interested in GMing a bunch of off the wall stuff like an entire group of polymorphed PCs." or something along those lines.

Hmm, he came up with this between sessions and hasnt mentioned it on your yahoo group for the game so I assume he hasnt told the rest of the group about the idea yet.

Polymorph any object does work on living things unfortunately.

And I'm not really sure how he'll take things. He's a good guy but a rules lawyer and a bit argumentative. For instance we are all new to pathfinder and in the middle of a dramatic moment I'm more likely to make a spot ruling on a rules question and continue on with the game so as not to disrupt the flow. But he always wants to stop everything and look everything up and gets a little pissy if we dont.

 

[alientude]

First off, make sure you understand the polymorph rules. One thing that pops out right away is that it sounds like the player is planning to have Polymorph, Greater cast on somebody, then Polymorph any Object after that. I'm guessing this is because he wants the duration points from transforming a creature into a similar one. Unfortunately for him, that just won't work. Only one polymorph effect can be active on a creature at once.

Also, Polymorph any Object works just like Polymorph, Greater in regards to what spell it mimics. He can't get anything better than Beast Shape IV, Elemental Body III, Plant Shape II, or Form of the Dragon I.

In addition, remember that all of a creature's gear melds into his body when polymorphed. They can't activate items or cast spells with material components (unless they have Eschew Materials or Natural Spell). Somatic and Verbal component spells require the form taken have the ability to make the gestures and speak, such as a dragon.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Magic - Pathfinder_OGC

"You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell."


Does that about cover things? Pretty clear polymorph spells weren't meant to stack, which includes using the form you're in from polymorph spell A to affect the parameters of polymorph spell B. Also, the polymorph rules are mum on whether you retain your creature type or assume the one of the form you take (a shame, really, that'd be REALLY simple to point out and matters a TON for rules adjudications), which I guess means it's up to the DM. If you rule he doesn't gain the new form's type, that means he's not really that creature, further undermining use of PAO as he sees it.

As for your 50 hp ad hoc limit... Polymorphed creatures retain their hp, so that's just kind of an odd restriction. And too limited, I'm sure you could Beast Shape I into things with over 50 hp...

 

[Squire James]

I think Polymorph Any Object retains some of the original problems that the 3e and 3.5e polymorph spells had. For instance, changing a creature's size to, say, Colossal but otherwise unchanged is actually permanent (easily... only missing 2 of the possible 13 factors)! Unless you put some strict limits such as equipment not growing with them, this can be pretty abusing even by level 8 spell standards.

The best way to nip this sort of thing in the bud is to not have any level 15+ casters accepting pay for spellcasting in your world. Just because the book says it's possible doesn't mean it exists! When the party gets to be level 15+ themselves, well, you have to expect a great deal of power to be available for their use!

 

[N'raac]

OK, he's Colossal. That may seem less brilliant if the next scenario requires undercover investigation, dungeon exploration or pretty much anything other than stomping on something that gets in your way. Oh, and what's the cost of food and drink for a Colossal character for a week? New gear may be problematic as well.

 

[paradox42]

Yeah, N'raac is correct. My party used to use Giant Size (originally Oriental Adventures, later Complete Arcane) every chance they got in my 3.X games, and I can tell you up front that being that big is not something you want to be permanent. For the duration of one battle, sure; after that same battle, it becomes more trouble than the original casting was worth.

 

[Squire James]

I know one player character who DREAMS of being Colossal permanently, and in an appropriate fantasy setting such characters can be accommodated ("if the dungeon's not big enough, I smash the dungeon and leave"). Still, I get your point. I guess we should really be worried about gnat-sized rogues with wings and 8 or more dice of Sneak Attack... still permanent under the Polymorph Any Object rules!

 

[ImperatorK]

I was under the impression that Pathfinder heavily nerfed every polymorph-like spell and ability. Last time I looked at the spells they where good, but hardly abusable or overpowered. But maybe there was some errata that I don't know about. and it would be just like Paizo to break again one thing they managed to fix (more-or-less).