Polymorph question: kung-fu dino!

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
O wise ones! Any guidance you can give me on a few polymorph questions will be greatly appreciated. One of my PCs is a high level monk-like character who has access to polymorph. According to the rules as written (and feel free to say where you think the RAW is unbalanced):


- As far as I can tell, polymorph now gives all of the following (some of which are "based on" alter self, as in the 3.5 spell description.) If I'm wrong on any of this, let me know.
Type and Subtype (and the PC can be any one of the following: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin)
Size (as long as Hit Dice don't exceed the PC's caster level)
Movement Rate and Types (as long as they are physically derived)
Natural Armor bonus
Natural attack forms
Special Attacks (as long as they are Ex only)
NO Special Qualities
Physical Ability Scores (Str, Dex, and Con) are set to the creature's
Mental Ability Scores are the PC's​

- Are magic items subsumed into the new form and do they keep working? (What about a suit of armor? What about a ring of protection? How about a ring that needs to be activated?)

- I assume the PC keeps all of his own feats and class abilities as long as they are derived from class and not my form (which really, is all of them.)

- How do feats (most of which are martial arts stuff) interact with creatures which have natural attacks? For instance, the PC has a feat which increased his unarmed strike damage one size category (d8 to 2d6) -- would this carry over to the natural attacks of the new form?

- Are the natural attacks of the polymorphed form considered unarmed strikes?

- Can he still use Flurry Attack with the new form? If he became a bear with bite claw claw, could he then bite bite claw claw, all at -2?

Thank you for any advice you can offer! I expect that there's a martial artist mega-raptor in my future, and I'd just as soon be ready. :D
 
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Piratecat said:
- Are magic items subsumed into the new form and do they keep working? (What about a suit of armor? What about a ring of protection? How about a ring that needs to be activated?)

If they can conceivably fit on the new form, then they are still there and working, otherwise the are subsumed and do not. You can end up with some funny-dressed apes, umber hulks, etc this way.

- I assume the PC keeps all of his own feats and class abilities as long as they are derived from class and not my form (which really, is all of them.)

Yep.

- How do feats (most of which are martial arts stuff) interact with creatures which have natural attacks? For instance, the PC has a feat which increased his unarmed strike damage one size category (d8 to 2d6) -- would this carry over to the natural attacks of the new form?

- Are the natural attacks of the polymorphed form considered unarmed strikes?

- Can he still use Flurry Attack with the new form? If he became a bear with bite claw claw, could he then bite bite claw claw, all at -2?

These questions are related. Natural attacks are not unarmed strikes, and therefore feats which affect unarmed strikes, and flurry of blows, do not work with natural attacks.

In general, your monk will do better to unarmed strike as a monk of the size of the critter he polymorphed into. I had a really fun session playing a kung fu ape once due to this. Your kung-fu raptor will probably be punching and kicking instead of biting and clawing.
 

- Are magic items subsumed into the new form and do they keep working? (What about a suit of armor? What about a ring of protection? How about a ring that needs to be activated?)

Armor - subsumed and nonfunctional, the rest can resize if it the creature could wear that item (necklace, rings, bracers- sure; cloaks, hats, belts start getting into the goofy), if an item is subsumed it is non-functional.

- I assume the PC keeps all of his own feats and class abilities as long as they are derived from class and not my form (which really, is all of them.)
Yeap

- How do feats (most of which are martial arts stuff) interact with creatures which have natural attacks? For instance, the PC has a feat which increased his unarmed strike damage one size category (d8 to 2d6) -- would this carry over to the natural attacks of the new form?

Natural weapons are not unarmed attacks, any ability/feat working on unarmed attacks would not apply.

However monk damage is based on size so size plus Improved damage apply.

- Are the natural attacks of the polymorphed form considered unarmed strikes?

No

- Can he still use Flurry Attack with the new form?

Yes, using normal monk damage for the size

If he became a bear with bite claw claw, could he then bite bite claw claw, all at -2?

He can Flurry (at -2) and then gets Bite, Claw at an additional -5 (-7) unless he has Multi-attack.

Correction: No, flurry or natural attack progression since bears did not normally mix weapons and natural.
 
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Per 11/19/04 FAQ

Exactly how often can a monk attack with a single
manufactured weapon when using the flurry of blows
ability? For example, if I have a +1 alchemical silver dagger,
and I’m allowed three attacks in a flurry, how many of
those attacks can be dagger attacks? What if I have two
daggers? How about with natural weaponry, such as a claw
or bite? For example, if I have a vampire monk, can I
flurry with a slam attack and drain energy multiple times
from one living foe? If natural weaponry doesn’t work with
a flurry, why not?

You can’t use a dagger with a flurry of blows at all. When
you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed
strikes or with special monk weapons. There are only six of the
latter included in the Player’s Handbook (kama, nunchaku,
quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon
(any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special
monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.
If you have one (or two) special monk weapons, you can
freely substitute attacks with those weapons with unarmed
attacks in the flurry (see the flurry of blows description on page
46 of the Player’s Handbook). If you’re allowed three attacks
in a flurry, and you have a +1 alchemical silver sai (or other
special monk weapon), you could use the sai up to three times
in the flurry. The examples given in the flurry of blows entry
don’t make that completely clear because they don’t cover all
the combinations of weapon attacks and unarmed strikes that
are possible.
If you have two special monk weapons to use, you can use
either or both of them in the flurry. For example, if you’re
entitled to three attacks using flurry of blows, and you’re armed
with a +1 alchemical silver sai and a cold iron sai, you can
make three attacks with one sai and no attacks with the other,
two attacks with one sai and one attack with the other, one
attack with each sai and one unarmed attack, or any other
combination of three attacks. Note that having a sai in each
When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk
suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting
(see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds
only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand
unarmed strike hits.
To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack
whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if
any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s
full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains
only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a
weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it
can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For
example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat
and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and
decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a
base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry,
the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2
flurry, +2 Strength). An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so
the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry
and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks,
each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry
are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to
damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s
Strength bonus to damage (+1).
If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the
flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry
(in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an
unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with
the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available
for the flurry and vice versa.

Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine
a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her
penalties on attack rolls?

A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand
weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon
fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.
For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally
make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of
blows, she may make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any
special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she
wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to
accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8
penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light
weapon in her off hand).
If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only
a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off
hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand
during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks,
each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to
be with her off-hand weapon.
A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can
make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows.
Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three
off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five
attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any
weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also
has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her
flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged
attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her
primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer
a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this:
+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with
shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.

I have a question about the unarmed damage of an
enlarged 20th-level human monk who has Empty Hand
Mastery (from Oriental Adventures). In my understanding,
this monk deals the same damage as a Huge monk. My
question is, how much damage does a Huge monk deal with
her unarmed strike?

A monk’s unarmed strike damage follows the normal rules
for weapon damage when the wielder’s size varies from the
normal range, as described in Table 2–2 and Table 2–3 on page
28 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. A Huge 1st-level monk
deals 2d6 points of damage with her unarmed strike, since her
size category is increased two steps from Medium, the baseline
for damage values.
A 20th-level monk with Empty Hand Mastery deals 4d8
points of damage with her unarmed strikes, and 6d8 points of
damage when enlarged.
Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural
weapons? For example, let’s say he’s an 8th-level monk.
Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0
unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2
hooves?

If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he may make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.
An 8th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +10
(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +6 from his
8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +8/+8/+3. He can add two hoof
attacks at +1/+1 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the
flurry).
 

So he could have feet with claws, but he would be kicking instead of clawing. . . he'd be using his normal monk damage (adjusted for size) and quantity of iterative attacks instead of the normal claw or bite damage and quantity of attacks that the creature would normally have? Huh, that never even occurred to me.

EDIT - Jody, Dan, very useful. Thanks.
 
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Hmm... I would probably only allow monk unarmed attacks if the form is vaguely humanoid, like pretty much all humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants and fey, but very few of the other forms, some aberrations probably and maybe a treant. Otherwise just use the natural attacks as normal without fancy monk stuff.

I just can't see a hydra, triceratops or dire shark doing monk-like flurry of blow attacks. ;)

Bye
Thanee
 
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Fear the kung-fu treant, that's all I'll say.

Very scary, probably 2 size increases and all your blows deal double damage to objects since that is an EX attack form.

Other fun Kung-fu forms are Stone Giant, Firbolg, War Troll, or Gray Glutton. Anything really strong and bigger than the monks normal size will probably benefit them a lot.
 

Plane Sailing said:
Fear the kung-fu treant, that's all I'll say.

Very true. I had one in a campaign I was running last year and, because of the treant's low HD relative to its size (because it wasn't published in MM2 or MM3 which has set new standards for HD by size), such a combination is within reach of a 7th-level party.

Anyway, it was a good way of making the monk more effective in combat... and I was both the DM and the one who suggested this tactic.
 

You should also consider the errata about the Megaraptor:

Megaraptor, Large Animal: HD 8d8+43 (79 hp); Init +2; Mv 60' (12 sq.); AC 17 (T 11, FF 15); Attack Talons +10 (2d6+5); Full Attack Talons +10 (2d6+5) and 2 foreclaws +5 (1d4+2) and bite +5 (1d8+2); Grapple +15; Space/Reach 10'/5'; SA Pounce; SQ Low-light vision, scent; Save Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +4; Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; Skills: Hide +9, Jump +27, Listen +12, Spot +12, Survival +12; Feats: Run, Toughness, Track; CR 6; AL N
Pounce (Ex): If a megaraptor charges, it can make a full attack.
Skills: A megaraptor has a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.

It has been reduced from Huge to Large and may be less appealing now.

Note that the Revived Fossil Megaraptor in Libris Mortis is also based on the old version and not the new one in the errata, they also forgot to errata the Advanced Megaraptor Skeleton in the MM. WotC should really incorporate all erratas into the SRD to prevent further mistakes.

~Marimmar
 

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