Polytheism in medieval europe

[Desdichado]

Our modern idea of proof versus faith is a very recent debate. Whether God really existed wasn't really under debate until the 18th century. Everyone took the existence of the divine for granted.

I know, I'm not arguing really against any of your points. It seems too easy in the academic community to propose that everybody thought differently in other time periods (which to a certain extent was almost certainly true anyway) rather than propose that the evidence is really not very good one way or another. I've looked at a lot of different mythological sources too. One thing I haven't found much of, though, is a case where a single primary source presented contradictions with itself, though. In fact, I can't think of an example. These contradictions usually come about when you look at the work of someone who compiled stories from another source, either oral or other written sources.

Also, you (rightly) warn me about applying modern ideology to pagan European traditions, yet you blithely apply aboriginal North American traditions to European traditions and say that they had a common method of thought? I find that a bit spurious, to say the least.

More on topic, I think applying modern logic to polytheistic societies in D&D is probably the way to go. As I've argued in other threads, most [EDIT games' societies and values share very little in common with Medieval societies and values and are much more modern. Might as well make the application of religion consistent with that.

 

[Thorntangle]

So... what do you choose?

Those are some good ideas, but it still doesn't address the fact that most D&D deities play a very active role in worldly affairs and communicate with their followers. I can't see an active D&D deity allowing a cancer to grow within his/her church unless he was a passive deity that does not meddle in mortal affairs or the internal corruption served his purposes.

I think the paradigm of our world's reality is slipping into this scenario. Corruption within our churches can occur because the christian god simply does not actively intervene or communicate directly to followers. It would be a hard sell (for me) that a fallen, subverted holy man could remain active within the church as an agent of corruption. The god just needs to whisper in someone's ear, "Judas is on the take. Please see to his reeducation."

I think the scenario where the deity allows the corruption to occur to a specific end or process would be far more interesting and leads to greater possibilities. But in the end, it depends on the world you are using and degree to which the pantheon of gods intervene in mortal affairs.

 

[Desdichado]

Those are some good ideas, but it still doesn't address the fact that most D&D deities play a very active role in worldly affairs and communicate with their followers.

1) Says who? They don't in any worlds I run. 2) Doesn't mean they're gossiping about all the other priests in the church even if they are active and chatty. 3) As I said earlier in this thread, most "priests" are probably actually experts, aristocrats or even commoners, not clerics per se. They aren't going to have to worry much about what you're proposing either.

 

[Piratecat]

I was just thinking about that. If someone was on the take, that could easily spark an inquisition - and I wonder what would happen to a church where God ratted out everyone who didn't meet his high standards? Some interesting roleplaying inherent in that question!

Anyways, I think games are less fun if the Gods are interested in minutiae. We were joking about that with the divine agent's ability to have their god talk directly to them. "Don't wear that robe. It makes you look fat." "Yes, God!" "And comb your hair before the sermon! Do you want My followers to think you were raised in a barn?" "No, God!"

 

[Thorntangle]

Thorntangle, I have to be blunt with you--all D&D gods are by default "active" because they grant people spells. Some gods may be more active than that, but even that action represents a great deal of interest in the world...

Sorry, I had a feeling I should have elaborated on my definition of active/passive deities in D&D.

Sure, they are active in that they bestow spells to clerics. But what if they did nothing else? You could house rule that players didn't have access to Augury, Divination, Commune, etc. The gods could just use clerics and paladins as conduits for divine power to be used as they see fit through their talent in casting spells. Some might even define a passive god as one that had no agenda in regards to mortal affairs, and just existed.

 

[Thorntangle]

Anyways, I think games are less fun if the Gods are interested in minutae. We were joking about that with the divine agent's ability to have their god talk directly to them. "Don't wear that robe. It makes you look fat." "Yes, God!" "And comb your hair before the sermon! Do you want My followers to think you were raised in a barn?" "No, God!"

That would be great! Marabel, god of Mothers As long as one of the PC's didn't follow her, she would make a very interesting deity. The PC's couldn't hear her but would constantly see her followers muttering, "Yes, mother. Of course, mother. Right away, mother."

It all depends on how you define minutiae - Which sermon to read today or brother Cadmus's plan for extortion and embezzlement which will ultimately cause the decline of the church due to undermining public confidence and subsequent defection to other gods.

 

[Thorntangle]

1) Says who? They don't in any worlds I run. 2) Doesn't mean they're gossiping about all the other priests in the church even if they are active and chatty. 3) As I said earlier in this thread, most "priests" are probably actually experts, aristocrats or even commoners, not clerics per se. They aren't going to have to worry much about what you're proposing either.

1) Exactly. That's why I said in the same post:

But in the end, it depends on the world you are using and degree to which the pantheon of gods intervene in mortal affairs.

2) They don't necessarily have to gossip. But I don't think the conveyance of important messages is beyond the scope of reasonability. Corruption is reasonable I think. What LG god wants corruption in their church?

3) Yes, holy man doesn't necessarily mean classed. I was trying to offer by the precedent of clerics/paladins the fact that gods directly communicate displeasure to their followers when they stray. Couldn't this be extended to priests as well? But again, like I said, see the quote above.

To me, the typical pantheon of gods in D&D takes an active role in the state of mortal affairs to some end, if not just to the greater glory of themselves. This may not be the way everyone sees it, but the game is structured that way and the mythology upon which the pantheons are based support it as well.

It sounds like you have an interesting campaign world that I would enjoy playing. I like the idea of a non-interventionist pantheon. How have you handled certain issues such as questions from your players when they try to get the god to suggest a course of action through augury, divination, commune, etc.?

 

[Desdichado]

Well, I typically do one of the following: 1) custom magic system, so those spells aren't really applicable, or 2) you don't actually get to speak to your god unless you're an epic level cleric, most likely. You cast a divination or augury or whatever, and what you get is some kind of low-level divine bureaucrat. Sometimes these guys don't even know how to help you, sometimes they get snitty with you, or whatever. Just like real bureaucrats.

However, in all cases, you have to ask. Divine revelation is pull information flow, not a push information flow. So, unless you suspect Brother Cadfael of having a double life, you can ask, but if you don't suspect and don't ask, you never know. Also, you don't just get this kind of information for praying -- unless you are actually a classed cleric using the appropriate spell, you get no direct knowledge from your god other than vague good feelings that reaffirm your faith (if that.)

 

[jgbrowning]

i view all gods as being active gods, allowing commune etc... i think that's the default in DnD.

that being said i don't think the gods have the ability to pre-emptively warn of potential dificulties within a church. a fe reasons.

1. the god's power is spread out among an almost limitless number of worlds and worshippers. i think even given their great abilites they would not be to concerned if one of their churches fell to schism. that is unless it was a very special church... ie. the last church of the good god in a world over run by evil...

2. in your example a LG god would, IMHO, continually challange his worshippers. I think there are enough RL comparisons between that idea that its not too far fetched. the old concept of testing...

3. I don't think when most people use divination spells they're actually speaking with their god. their talking to the second sub-level class D part-time messanger of the god. Actually speaking with a god i'd have to consider a once in a lifetime affair at best. The various sub-alterns or avatars wouldn't have the full abilities of the god. I kinda view it as when someone asks my wife about what i'd think about something.. most of the time, 95% or so, she's dead on about how i'd respond, but there are differences. And that's about simple matters when compared to the complexity involved in something like Piratecats scenerio.

4. And my main point about how corruption would occured, would almost be inevitable, is that gods offer powers to more than one alignment so the must be ok with it. NG and LN are both viewed as just as appropriate for the worshipper of a LG god. Personally, i think that's bunk, but the game's take is different and i follow it because, well to be honest, its never been that important to me to house-rule.

joe b.

 

[jgbrowning]

That would be great! Marabel, god of Mothers As long as one of the PC's didn't follow her, she would make a very interesting deity. The PC's couldn't hear her but would constantly see her followers muttering, "Yes, mother. Of course, mother. Right away, mother."

It all depends on how you define minutiae - Which sermon to read today or brother Cadmus's plan for extortion and embezzlement which will ultimately cause the decline of the church due to undermining public confidence and subsequent defection to other gods.

That's the best idea for a new god that i've heard in years! I see her worshippers being chosen by her and given no choice to worship. She pops in your head when your very young and won't ever leave. She can make your life a living hell if you dont obey her, so eventually everyone falls into line, or commits suicide.

Hrm... Marabel, the Mother god: LN god of responsibility, family, and tradition. domains available.... hrm... death, knowledge, law, protection. Would be very interesting.

As to defining minutiae...

Here's a few ideas about how a god could allow your brother Cadmus's plan to occur.

1. The god has plans for the church and needs to loose credibility because the rest of the church has "slid" a little. He wants the church to look like jerks, because that will make the rest of the church mind their p's and q's.

2. Periodically the god plants people who he know's wont be able to walk the path for their entire life in the church. He uses these people to force the rest of flock to understand and fully practice the art of forgiveness.

3. The god is tired of the institutional mentality that has taken over the church *hard to prevent if it has a long history* and wants to shake things up.... to get people to view certain aspects of the church and faith a bit differently.

joe b.