Polytheism in medieval europe

More on topic, I think applying modern logic to polytheistic societies in D&D is probably the way to go. As I've argued in other threads, most games' societies and values share very little in common with Medieval societies and values and are much more modern. Might as well make the application of religion consistent with that.

Joshua, glad to see (re the other part of your message I'm not quoting) that we are more generally on the same page than I'd imagined. The point you raise here I find intriguing and basically correct. It does seem that the majority of work within the fantasy genre is about people with modern minds grappling with modern questions in fantastic and/or primitive worlds.

I suppose I do have more of a tendency to try to depict societies that are more 'authentically' 'other' than mainstream of the fantasy genre does. But this is why I guess I jump enthusiastically into debates that try to be a little more historical or anthropological in nature.

In the case of Shintoism, I was under the impression that yes, there was less diversity and heresy than say, Buddhism or Catholicism. Could you give some examples?

Well, I don't have the kind of knowledge of Shintoism that I do of Mormonism and Roman Catholicism, or medieval Eastern Orthodoxy. However, my understanding in that a large portion of Shintoism is a "hyphenated religion" -- combined, in many cases, with Buddhism and increasingly with Christianity. However, given that all the research I have time to do these days is for school; I'll just retract my statement about Shintoism and replace my reference to it with a reference to Roman polytheism and medieval Eastern Orthodoxy. Given that you have recognized the correctness of my point as it pertains to Roman Catholicism, I don't feel the need to squabble over minutiae. The point is that faiths with living Gods or equivalents thereof to whom worshippers have access are still prone to a plurality of views.

Anyways, I think games are less fun if the Gods are interested in minutae. We were joking about that with the divine agent's ability to have their god talk directly to them. "Don't wear that robe. It makes you look fat." "Yes, God!" "And comb your hair before the sermon! Do you want My followers to think you were raised in a barn?" "No, God!"

Actually, one of the funniest episodes in my current campaign comes from a character obtaining a custom magic item that allowed him to Commune once a week with a god. As it turned out, the god was Ishai, God of the Magi; this fellow was a multiclass cleric/wizard who while a member of the Guild of the Magi which Ishai stood at the head, was a cleric of a heretical sect worshipping a new god called Lucky Jim. The god of the Magi figured this out in their conversation (after already being pissed off about being disturbed by someone bothering him with a found item) and promptly reported him for this heresy via the god's avatar on earth. The next time the character went to the guild to get some spell training, he found he'd been blackballed -- and couldn't get any more spells from the guild until he renounced the heresy.

Obviously, for this kind of thing to be significant, this kind of thing can't happen very often in a campaign but I personally find gods' interest in minutiae quite fun. Many polytheistic systems have very petty gods whose vanity and sense of self-importance is to some degree contingent on their mortal followers. I find that enjoyable in a god.

all D&D gods are by default "active" because they grant people spells. Some gods may be more active than that, but even that action represents a great deal of interest in the world...

I don't find that this follows at all; gods aren't saying "should I let Jim have cure serious wounds today?" Spells are a way that gods don't have to be active; they don't directly oversee how magic is employed in their name and more than the god of light directly intervenes every time someone turns on a lamp. Spells, in my theory of magic, are about tapping directly into the god's reservoir of power -- something that is passively available for those sanctioned to use it.
 

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fusangite said:

I don't find that this follows at all; gods aren't saying "should I let Jim have cure serious wounds today?" Spells are a way that gods don't have to be active; they don't directly oversee how magic is employed in their name and more than the god of light directly intervenes every time someone turns on a lamp. Spells, in my theory of magic, are about tapping directly into the god's reservoir of power -- something that is passively available for those sanctioned to use it.

In default D&D, the gods are choosing to allow people channel their power. This is an active power, delegated to others--hell, the spell Miracle is a call for the diety to directly intervene on the caster's behalf. When someone changes alignment, or fails his priestly code, the god is saying, on some level, "Jim doesn't get cure serious wounds today. He's been a bad boy." This may be different in your world, but that is how things are run in the default setting.
 

In default D&D, the gods are choosing to allow people channel their power. This is an active power, delegated to others--

My point here is that "active power" and "delegated power" are effectively opposites in this discussion.

hell, the spell Miracle is a call for the diety to directly intervene on the caster's behalf.

And what percentage of clerics reach a level whereby they can cast that spell? 10% 2%? You citation of this spell basically makes my point. It's only in exceptional spells like Miracle and Commune that the deity is called upon to directly act.

When someone changes alignment, or fails his priestly code, the god is saying, on some level, "Jim doesn't get cure serious wounds today. He's been a bad boy." This may be different in your world, but that is how things are run in the default setting.

The way I read D&D, it could equally be the case that the person is excommunicated -- a higher ranking member of the priesthood could sever the link, not necessarily the deity himself.

But I hope you get my point here; the Roman Catholic church to this day believes in the real presence and the miracle of transubstantiation. However, when miracles are performed in this world, as they are every day, it is through the power God delegates to his priests. As we know from the theology about evil/sinning priests, the quality of the priest is not dynamically assessed by God every time they perform a sacrament. Rather, the whole regulation of priestly conduct is delegated.
 

fusangite said:
But I hope you get my point here; the Roman Catholic church to this day believes in the real presence and the miracle of transubstantiation. However, when miracles are performed in this world, as they are every day, it is through the power God delegates to his priests. As we know from the theology about evil/sinning priests, the quality of the priest is not dynamically assessed by God every time they perform a sacrament. Rather, the whole regulation of priestly conduct is delegated.

Fusangite, i don't remember my early church history very well, but i believe there was a hugh arguement about the purity of priests being required or not required in order to perform the sacrament. I see you guys as having an arguement that is similiary based. Both points are good points and can be used as well in different game. Hopefully you'll know the name of the herisy im thinking of as its just completely gone from my mind.. :(

joe b.
 

Fusangite, i don't remember my early church history very well, but i believe there was a hugh arguement about the purity of priests being required or not required in order to perform the sacrament. I see you guys as having an arguement that is similiary based. Both points are good points and can be used as well in different game. Hopefully you'll know the name of the herisy im thinking of as its just completely gone from my mind.. :

This was a big part of the 16th century catholic verus protestant debate. The protestants said it did matter what kind of person performed sacraments; the catholics too the position at the Council of Trent and ever since that even a priest in mortal sin can fully administer the sacraments as long as he had not been relieved of his position by the church hierarchy.

This is one of the most important issues in the catholic-protestant split. While some catholics had suggested that the nature of the priest could not be completely severed from the validity of the rituals he performed prior to the Reformation, the Roman Catholic church never accepted these views -- nor did Orthodox Christianity which is based around the idea of an imperial theocracy.
 


jgbrowning said:
My wife just reminded me what i was thinking about... the donatists... *duh* :)

fourth century north africa.... and continued till what..? the 9th century or so...

http://www.bethel.edu/~letnie/AfricanChristianity/WNADonatism.html

joe b.

Thanks for this. An inventory of monotheistic heresies might even be something worth looking for your book as well as examples of acutal medieval pagan systems that are sufficiently documented --not as history but a options fo DMs in how to deal with a plurality of faiths.
 

Thanks to everybody that replied. There were a lot of great ideas bounced around that could fit into a variety of campaigns and inject a little ... realism. Or maybe verisimilitude is a better word.

Verisimilitude is the hallmark of some of my favorite story hours and the games I like to play. Probable pantheons, logical social organizations and living, breathing worlds aid in my suspension of disbelief. In the story hour forum, I can point to Sepulchrave and Old One as my favorite verisimilitudinous authors. Their worlds are so populated with vivid characters and mind-boggling detail that you can't help but to suspend disbelief.
(I enjoy many other story hours but these two exemplify verisimilitude in their campaign worlds)

I would like to get more input on injecting more verisimilitude into a default medieval europe campaign world. While this may not be everybody's concept of an ideal campaign world, it is the basis for many campaign worlds in existence and I'm sure many would benefit from the input from the massive pool of talent and knowledge on these boards. To this end I'll post more topics about medieval europe as a fantasy setting and how the different elements of D&D would fit within.
 

I think an interesting subject for future discussion would be the medieval guild system and how it relates to D&D. In this sense, I think 1E did a better job the 3E at talking about how guild hierarchies limit advancement.
 


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