Possible Cleric Change.

[Eolin]

Hello ...

I am considering a change to the cleric class for game I'm thinking through.

The change is this: get rid of the domain bonus spell, allow spontaneous converting to domain spells and domain spells only.

So if you don't have the healing domain, no spontaneous healing. What I don't want but think might happens is for this to cause for all PC clerics to have the healing domain, which would reduce difference in characters, which is the opposite of what I'm going for.

So, i decided to come out my lurking cave (been doing that a lot lately) and ask the experts. Do you think such a change would increase or decrease versatility (actual, not just theoretical) and increase or decrease the power of the cleric class?

 

[Nifft]

I've done this in my campaign. There are a few gotchas.

1) Many Domain spells are stolen from the Sor/Wiz spell list. When you're limited to 1/day casting, it's no big deal. When it's like a Sorcerer -- available every fight -- it's overpowering.

2) Many Domain spells are sweet at the level when you first get them, but lame later on.

I've addressed these issues by re-working Domain spells for my campaign. You can find my lists here:

http://fishnet.cx/~josh/DnD/DHE/domains3.5.shtml

-- N

 

[azabaro]

1) Many Domain spells are stolen from the Sor/Wiz spell list. When you're limited to 1/day casting, it's no big deal. When it's like a Sorcerer -- available every fight -- it's overpowering.

Maybe there's a middle ground. How about if you limited this spontaneous casting of domain spells by requiring the Cleric to spend something like a turning attempt each time? That would, incidentally, create a divide in the Clergy between the wise clerics and the charismatic clerics (who cast fewer spells overall, but are better at acting within their deity's domains). Of course, anybody could become more like the charismatic clergy by taking Extra Turning...

Just a thought. I'm not sure what to do about the spells that don't stay useful as you level up.

 

[Jdvn1]

I think there's a feat in CD that lets you spontaneously cast from one of your domains. Maybe that fits better?

 

[sfedi]

I did exactly that.
And to prevent everyone taking the Healing Domain, I improved the spells granted by other domains.
In fact, some Domains grant more than one spell per level (so you have a greater variety of spells to cast spontaneously)

 

[Eolin]

Wow, a lot of good quick responces.

Nifft, thanks for the linkage. I like quite a few of the domain powers, though some of it seems too powerful -- maybe instead of upping the power of the other domains, I could lower the power of the healing domain somehow?

I don't know how to do that -- it already just provides what is really thought of as the healing spell at each level. Oh well, its not a big deal I guess. And knowing my players, they might not take it anyway.

In this particular game, I don't think clerical magic is going to come from gods necessarily -- but directly from insight. As that is the case, I'm considering changing the number of domains, or at least allow for ways to learn more domains.

Maybe start with one and gain one every five? I would like something that feels more organic, though, perhaps a sacrifice of XP or spells per day or something like that to gain an additional spell?

That way, they don't have to gain more domains. I want the idea to be that they can add breadth to understanding and grasp more fields than they did before and thus, have closer access to some domain.

But aside from that, how does one at first and one at fifth and every five thereafter sound? At 20th, that'd be 5 domains, which sounds like a whole lot -- that may be too many possible substitutions, to where they feel they no longer need to memorize spells. I certainly don't want to up the power of the class, just change some flavor.


Oooh: Idea right before I posted, could it be that you sacrifice the *ability* to turn once a day to gain another domain? How does that sound?

 

[sfedi]

Oooh: Idea right before I posted, could it be that you sacrifice the *ability* to turn once a day to gain another domain? How does that sound?

That's really cheap.
Specially since undead ceratures come more and more tougher against turn undead.

 

[Nifft]

Nifft, thanks for the linkage. I like quite a few of the domain powers, though some of it seems too powerful -- maybe instead of upping the power of the other domains, I could lower the power of the healing domain somehow?

Well, IMC Clerics only get free Light armor and Shields proficency, and they only start with 1 Domain. However, they can pick up new Domains as Feats starting at 3rd level. It seems balanced so far.

The powerful Domains mean that you can really focus your Cleric, but at a price -- I don't give 'em away for free. There are no PrCs that grant bonus Domains, and Clerics who want to act like classical tanks will need to invest a level in Fighter.

IMHO, this allows many nice variations of the Cleric archtype.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Storyteller01]

This might help...


MGP put together a drow arcane spell caster with access to Paths (effectively Domains).
They did not gain an extra spell per day. Instead, they could sacrifice a memorized spell to cast a Path spell of the same or lower level.

The Catch: Spell level slots 7,8, & 9 could ONLY be used for Path spells. There simply was no list of spells to learn/memorize available at these levels. No sacrifice, but there are no spells to sacrifice, just the spell slots!!

You can run it as an either/or senario: Keep your normal spontaneous casting and extra spell slot, or be able to cast your Domain spells spontaneously at the expense of higher level spell availiility.

 

[Eolin]

That I like. I also dig the limit on armor profs. Makes them more like the other spellcasters, which I dig. Also tunes down the power level a little, which is OK with clerics.

As for taking domains as feats, I might just go that route.

So, to compile the ideas I think I'll use:
No domain bonus spells.
7,8,9th spells come only from domains.
spontaneous conversation spell levels 0-6 only to domain spells.
only light armor prof.

Hmmm... There's a big switch there between 6th level spells and seventh. I kind of want an intermediary for spell levels 4 to 6. But I don't know what it should be. Maybe spontaneous conversion that take longer to cast, like a full round action? I want something that will give a flavor difference so the change at seventh doesn't seem to come out of nowhere. (or does spontaneous conversation usually take a full round action?)

There've been a lot of good responces. Thanks everybody. I've got changes for wizard's and sorcerer's as well, but I'm likely to open up a new thread on those later.