Power Attack Woes :(

[swordsmasher]

Any other DM's frustrated by the 3.5 revision of Power Attack when using a weapon two handed? It seems that the party's half-orc barbarian is always getting the kill on his first or second attack. While raging, he deals on average 2d6+21 points of damage while power attacking for 7 with his greatsword.

 

[Darmanicus]

Do his opponents even have AC's?

 

[EricNoah]

Remind me of what the numbers would look like via 3.0 power attack. It's not all that much different is it? Just a few hit points per hit? Ultimately, then, it might be not so much a question of the feat, but the kinds of opponents he routinely faces. If that's the case, you can a) throw a few more grunts in to the combat (hitting harder doesn't mean you can hit more often, so a few more necks to chop might help slow him down a bit), b) make it a little harder for him to get to the target (a flying opponent, an opponent perched on a ledge, rough/hazardous terrain, opponent with concealment/invisibility, etc.). Ultimately his job is going to be to hack things to pieces, so you might want to adjust your encounters accordingly to sometimes allow him to do his job, or sometimes thwart his ability to do his job.

 

[Pseudonym]

An opponent with DR or a decent AC will do alright. If he PAs for 7, then he is a 7th level barbarian? So he is going on STR mod and weapon mod alone. Is his sword magic? Assuming he has a 20 STR then he'll need to roll at least 15 to hit an AC 20, which at 7th level his opponents should be well beyond.

Alternatively try an opponent that has more HP. Some fun EL7 choices are the bullette, the dire bear or an aboleth; a personal favorite.

 

[Darmanicus]

Have opponents with Displacement cast on them or Mirror Image maybe? What level is this guy anyhow that he can confidently PA@+7?

We have a group of 16-17th lv characters and our fighters don't make THAT much use out of PA generally tending to keep it safe at about +5, (things have started to change however).

Have you thought about creatures that have fast healing or regeneration?

The list is endless however if you're going to insist on throwing creatures at a 7th lv barb that have an AC of 10 and under 20 HP's then what do you expect?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Characters aren't supposed to hit all the time when using full power attack. Dropping power attack back to x1 won't solve the problem really, for 2d6+14 isn't so much better. Vary the encounters a bit, steering away from AC 10 enemies all the time to those who will have something close to or even beyond 20 once in a while, and suddenly the average damage will be quite low as misses ruin the statistics.

I'm playing a fighter, too. Now 9th level (Ftr 7 /Tactical Soldier 2), using spiked chain and Power Attack. In theory, I could make three attacks (boots of speed) with 2d4+25 plus 1d6 sonic each, for an average of 100 points of damage per round (cleave not included). In practice, I'll hit once or twice, and with much less power attack. Often I only convert the bonuses gained by flanking, prayer and/or bardic music into power attack.

 

[Shadow145]

I keep it as it was in 3.0. The main fighter is still doing a ton of damage. i don't think it has hurt play too much.

I guess in general AC's don't go up as fast as attack bonuses (typically, they kind of plateau out in the mid-20s, don't they?), so I find the power attacking fighter will most often still hit with his first attack. Essentially, what power attacking does is make those second and third attacks a lot less likely to hit. Also, DR is a bit lower then it use to be in 3.0, so a power attack will concievably do more net damage then it used to, even without the change in power attack.

I actually did it more for the PC's then the NPC's. It seemed a little too lethal for my tastes, especially early on.

In addition, it takes away from the added step of multiplying the value by two that goes on in the player's head as he is debating how much to put in, which helps speed up some players a bit.

Just for fun (and I'm not claiming my math as flawless) lets compare a typical 7th level fighter with a 7th level wizard.

7th lvl Fighter: Power Attacking with say a +2 magic greatsword (ignoring potential criticals).
+7 BAB +2 MAgic weapon, and lets say he has managed to get an 18 str at this point, so he's at +4 str.

Attack is +13/+8 (2d6 + 2 mag + 6 (str)= 2d6+8, avg 15 ) without power attack
Attack is +6/+1 (2d6 + 2 mag + 6 (str) + 7 = 2d6+15 avg 22) with 7 power attack in 3.0
Attack is +6/+1 (2d6 + 2 mag + 6 (str) + 14 = 2d6+22 avg 29) with 7 power attack in 3.5.

Now, he still has to hit, and criticals can get the damage ridiculous, easily to the point of forcing massive damage saves (a different issue). Plus he can do this all day long.

I have a player with a 13th level character, high strength, magic Greatsword, plus improved crit. His damage gets up into the 30s regularly. That is with 3.0 rules. We see a massive damage save every few sessions.

A 7th level wizard using a standard area effect damage spell would be doing 7d6 damage (average 24.5), includes a save for half, but can get multiple enemies in an area. And no crits. And gets it a limited number of times a day.

What does all this mean? I don't know, I just throw numbers up there and try and sound like I know what I'm talking about. But anyway, I just think the spells should be doing more damage then the fighter, or should at least be comparabe.

However, maybe the 3.5 change was put in to allow two-handed weapon fighters comparable to two-weapon fighters and sword and boarders. If someone has done it and has proven it has to be that way to make it worth playing a two-handed weapon fighter, I'd switch it back to the 3.5 RAW.

 

[Felon]

Oh how the worm turns. There was a time during 3.0 that folks regularly whinged about the "uberness" of two-weapon fighting, stating that the math bore out how the wielder of a two-handed weapon just couldn't keep up.

It all boils down to this: does most of a character's damage come from Strength, or from other bonuses, like sneak attack, favored enemy, weapon properties such as flaming or vicious? Sure the barbarian uses a greatsword. But I'll betcha a rogue of equivalent level can still outdamage him with a couple of short swords.

Generally speaking, the DM's who get most upset over their perceived power-attack discrepency are:

A) Those lovable "low-magic" DM's who are stingy with magic weapons. If you don't let players get their hands on flaming or vicious weapons, then be aware that you are skewing the combat system to favor two-handers. Low-magic DM's have an annoying tendency to casually unplug elements from the game without considering the reprecussions, and then blame the game when they don't like the results.

B) DM's who don't run characters up into the mid-to-high levels (say, 9th and higher). Two-handed weapons shine at low levels, but the benefits don't scale that well compared to many other damage source. When the characters are 11th-level, the guy with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting will have the better deal.

And as others said, if a barbarian can routinely get away with taking a -7 penalty and all hist attacks still hit, you really need to consider bumping the AC on some of your foes. Not in every encounter, mind you, just enough that things even out.

 

[delericho]

I say don't worry about it. Remeber, the player has exactly 1 character to play while you, as DM, have an infinite supply. So, who cares if he's cutting through them like wheat? It's all just part of being a legendary character.

If it really bothers you, bump up the ACs of opponents. If the PC doesn't hit, power attack is useless. In fact, if the PCs are fighting opponents of the appropriate CR, power attack 7 should be a very sub-optimal choice. In general, only a few points of PA should be used to maximise damage. (Remember that if you add levels to a monster to increase it's toughness, this should typically be matched with an increase in the quality of the gear it's carrying. So, that 8th level orcish fighter should not have the same AC as the orcish warrior provided in the MM, at least most of the time.)

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

Power Attack Tips:

I use the 3.5 Power Attack rules & have no problem with them (and I have a Frenzied Berserker Half-Orc Barbarian, 25th level to worry about).

First: Don't tell your players the AC. Even after they have 'figured it out'. This means the barabarian will be more hesitant to use the power attack.

Second: Fight Defensivly. When they see the Barbarian cleave Timmy in 2, they'll do evertyhing they can to avoid that fate.

Third: Sunder/Disarm. Power Attack is less effective bar-handed.

Fourth: Ranged Attacks: Can't power attack a foe with a bow 90 feet away.

Fifth: Strength Damage: Less of a Str Mod, lower to hit/damage results.

Sixth: Little foes. He might kill 1 10 HD creature in a round, but 10 1 HD creatures will take a lot longer.

Seventh: Charm/Dominate. If he doesn't WANT to kill it, he won't.