D&D 5E Power Gamers and Balance - How to handle

[JacktheRabbit]

So it is quite common for people to argue this class is weak, that class is OP, only a fool would take this third class.

To me this is lazy on the part of DMs.

You are the final arbiter of your game. I have no problem with someone being a total powergamer, min/maxing their character design etc. I am going to balance it quite simply, the more you min/max your character the more you short thrift yourself in the magic item department. Trust me in saying the casual player, the player that does not use excel spreadsheets to eek out that extra point of damage every round. Those players are FAR more likely to find magic items that benefit their character, fit within their build and help them to improve their ability to help the party.

Min/maxers are more likely to build reputations and reputations mean opponents, the important ones, are more likely to know what their schtick is and are more likely to plan around it.

In the end the casual player, the for fun player, and the hardcore ex-accountant min/maxer all contribute about the same in battle.

Dont like it? Then dont intentionally build your character around loopholes in an attempt to break the game.

 

[Jester David]

I am going to balance it quite simply, the more you min/max your character the more you short thrift yourself in the magic item department. Trust me in saying the casual player, the player that does not use excel spreadsheets to eek out that extra point of damage every round. Those players are FAR more likely to find magic items that benefit their character, fit within their build and help them to improve their ability to help the party.

How do you prevent players from just giving the magic item to the "wrong" character?

 

[Satyrn]

Ugh. I feel like I just got - what?

What are you trying to make me feel by suggesting that I can't be a for-fun player and a powergamer?

 

[JacktheRabbit]

How do you prevent players from just giving the magic item to the "wrong" character?

Obviously this cannot be avoided, BUT one thing in your favor is that a general have fun player can benefit from a wide variety of items while a min/maxer has a more narrow selection of items that benefit their particular build.

I just make sure I limit magic items that fit well for both characters.

 

[FrogReaver]

So it is quite common for people to argue this class is weak, that class is OP, only a fool would take this third class.

To me this is lazy on the part of DMs.

You are the final arbiter of your game. I have no problem with someone being a total powergamer, min/maxing their character design etc. I am going to balance it quite simply, the more you min/max your character the more you short thrift yourself in the magic item department. Trust me in saying the casual player, the player that does not use excel spreadsheets to eek out that extra point of damage every round. Those players are FAR more likely to find magic items that benefit their character, fit within their build and help them to improve their ability to help the party.

Min/maxers are more likely to build reputations and reputations mean opponents, the important ones, are more likely to know what their schtick is and are more likely to plan around it.

In the end the casual player, the for fun player, and the hardcore ex-accountant min/maxer all contribute about the same in battle.

Dont like it? Then dont intentionally build your character around loopholes in an attempt to break the game.

I've only seen 1 character in 5e that came close to breaking the game. It was a 3rd level Variant Human Sorcerer that had the Lucky Feat, Enhance ability and Suggestion and had a higher wisdom and insight training and he also had basically all the conversation skills trained.

He could convince anyone to do almost anything either through mundane persuasion or if that failed he could do so through a subtle spelled suggestion so they wouldn't even know he casted anything on them.

He would start off precasting Enhance Ability Charisma on himself. This gave him advantage on Charisma checks. If it was a really important check he would use lucky on it and roll 3 dice for the check. If that failed he would stop concentrating on enhance ability and then use suggestion with subtle spell.

A lore bard is about as nasty with suggestion and bardic inspiration applying to others skill checks but without subtle spell the DM gets too many outs to deal with suggestion if it's something that a person can't be convinced to do mundanely.

 

[Xaelvaen]

Min/maxing, and abusing a 'loophole' as you put it, are completely separate things.

If it is truly a loophole, something that is obviously against the intent of the wording, simply don't allow it. This is the GM's prerogative, and should be respected by any player wishing the DM to arbitrate a game for them. An example of a loophole might be someone doing Fighter 1 / Ranger 2, and taking both Defensive and Mariner while wearing non-heavy armor. In my games, I don't allow these styles to stack. I consider a "+1 bonus to AC" to make the fighting style too similar, thus using the 'you cannot take a fighting style more than once' rule to arbitrate this. My players accept this reasoning, as does anyone new wishing to play at my table.

The other end of this argument, of course, is just actual Min/Maxing - people who just really enjoy being damage dealers. If you're dealing with a one-dimensional math-machine that isn't even really a player character, that's something you and your group should address far outside of in-game play and mechanics. You have to ultimately decide if that lack of depth is something you want in your games at all. (At my table, the answer is most certainly no).

However, if you're dealing with a character that has depth, flaws and personality just like anyone else, him making decisions to excel at particular tasks isn't something to shun or punish. I regularly deal with complex power games - those that Role Play -and- really enjoy character optimization, and my solution is actually quite simple: Make reliant mechanics for a fight. The Power Gamer wants to obviously be the star of the combat, and if other people don't use the same options, one can assume they don't - at least in the means of 'let's deal as much damage as possible.' The best solution for my table, is to simply make both very necessary. The bard in your group have a str/dex of 14 and can barely hit with his rapier? Obviously he doesn't care about hitting with his rapier. The Ftr/Pld/Brb like raging with 19 - 20 crit range and throwing in a Divine Smite on every crit they get? Awesome. Perhaps the BBG can't be harmed by melee weapons while it is focused on the attacker, and he focuses on the power gamer. However, any spell cast by a bard with a verbal component 'distracts' the boss, drawing the attention away - now the bard is just as valuable, if not moreso, to the power gamer.

Long-read-short, power gaming doesn't mean someone who doesn't also deserve praise for playing the game, and reward for caring. Sometimes, the power gamer can actually put -more- thought into their character. It isn't some mutually-exclusive switch that means they have to suck at the other facets of the game. If you have a truly bad person who literally does nothing but number crunch and has no proverbial character soul, that isn't some issue to be solved with magic item discrepancy.

 

[Satyrn]

He would start off precasting Enhance Ability Charisma on himself. This gave him advantage on Charisma checks. If it was a really important check he would use lucky on it and roll 3 dice for the check. If that failed he would stop concentrating on enhance ability and then use suggestion with subtle spell..

These are not the druids you are looking for.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I've only seen 1 character in 5e that came close to breaking the game. It was a 3rd level Variant Human Sorcerer that had the Lucky Feat, Enhance ability and Suggestion and had a higher wisdom and insight training and he also had basically all the conversation skills trained.

He could convince anyone to do almost anything either through mundane persuasion or if that failed he could do so through a subtle spelled suggestion so they wouldn't even know he casted anything on them.

He would start off precasting Enhance Ability Charisma on himself. This gave him advantage on Charisma checks. If it was a really important check he would use lucky on it and roll 3 dice for the check. If that failed he would stop concentrating on enhance ability and then use suggestion with subtle spell.

A lore bard is about as nasty with suggestion and bardic inspiration applying to others skill checks but without subtle spell the DM gets too many outs to deal with suggestion if it's something that a person can't be convinced to do mundanely.

Persuasion is just about one of the most breakable aspects of the game.

I handle it two ways, trivial characters can be tricked regularly, does it matter if you don't the innkeeper for something trivial. The only problem long term is people remember and if a character does this regularly they build a reputation.

When it comes to non-trivial NPCs it becomes MUCH harder. I don't care what you roll in persuasion if it contradicts the major goals of the person in question the Player will get shut down or worse, played by an NPC that "acts" like they are agreeing but in fact are planning on screwing the player over.

One thing you MUST do as a DM is hide the NPCs roll and don't make the mistake of saying things like "you succeeded" or "you failed" smart NPCs don't just say yes or no when persuaded. They consider their options and even if they roll poorly they will want to benefit themselves as well. A guard wants to make a bit of money, a guildmaster wants to be owed a favor. Don't be obvious and the sorcerer in question doesn't always know when he failed or succeeded and if he needs to add a Suggestion spell to the mix to get what he wants.

Sent from my SM-T820 using EN World mobile app

 

[FrogReaver]

These are not the druids you are looking for.

Mr. BBEG you should immediately add a secret passage from your bed chamber to the middle of the northwall of your castle so you have a good escape route if necessary. Okay guys lets sneak into the BBEG's bed chamber and kill him.

 

[Satyrn]

Mr. BBEG you should immediately add a secret passage from your bed chamber to the middle of the northwall of your castle so you have a good escape route if necessary. Okay guys lets sneak into the BBEG's bed chamber and kill him.

Hilarious.

But that's easy enough to make fun. Make it a couple corridors of death traps (deactived by a lever in the bedchamber). The players still get the victory of avoiding the rest of the place, but they're still forced to face a challenge.