Powergaming w/ Awaken: I have +2 HD!

hong · Sep 10, 2003

Why am I reminded of the overflow bug in Larn?

Pielorinho · Sep 10, 2003

And just to be perfectly clear with the process, Awaken is an instantaneous spell that gives the target +2 HD, +1d4 Cha, and an Int score of 3d6. Once the spell has taken effect, it doesn't exist any more. The changes to the creature are not bonuses; rather, they are simple additions to the creature's base stats, additions that are nonmagical and not bonuses.

The only restriction is that you can only cast it on an animal or a tree. THere's nothing to suggest that if the target's type changes from animal, the spell's changes to the creature's stats would go away; indeed, there's two arguments against that:

1) Since the spell ceases functioning immediately (i.e., its duration is instantaneous), the spell would have to be lying dormant and suddenly reactivate later to take the changes away if it worked like that. Removing the changes would presumably take magic; awaken's magic doesn't hang around to effect any such change.
2) The creature's type DOES change as soon as the spell is cast, changes to Magical Beast. Sure, 3.5 contains many ways to change the type to something else, but if the bonuses were to go away once the creature was no longer an animal, they would always go away instantly (since no animal remains an animal after being successfully targeted by the spell).

Daniel

Camarath · Sep 10, 2003

Pielorinho said:
End) Dispel magic on baleful polymorph: humanoid (or whatever)

I think the target's type would still be Magical Beast since the Awaken altered his type and nothing has dispelled or changed that.

DM2 · Sep 10, 2003

Camarath said:
I think the target's type would still be Magical Beast since the Awaken altered his type and nothing has dispelled or changed that.

I guess the extra HD would basically give you 2 levels of Animal advancement, as well as a +2 to your ECL, requiring you to play some catch-up on exp gain until you can start gaining class levels again.

Of course, I don't really see what would stop you from repeatedly casting it on yourself after changing to an animal form again until you have +XX Animal HD...forgoing further class advancement for quite a while.

Same with casting this repeatedly on an actual animal, and polymorphing it into an animal for over and over until it has +50 HD or something.

DM2

Artoomis · Sep 10, 2003

Well, I guess it's legal by a very strict reading of the rules.

It should obviously never, ever be allowed as being blatantly against all common sense.

I can think of a few ways to nix this, if it was really necessary to do so in a manner other than simply saying, "no!".

Method 1. Adopt Caliban's house rule of calling the Druid a Magical Beast when in animal form due to his high intelligence.

Method 2. Rule that if the druid takes animal form and becomes an "animal," then his intelligence must drop to "2," since no animal can be more intelligent than a "2." Now note that you could not cast the spell yourself because of both the time involved and the fact that at Int 2 you don't have the reasoning capability to do so (an animal cannot truly "reason"). Still, someone else could cast the spell or you could create an infusion, I suppose. Note:

"...To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened)..." There is an obvious buit-in limit here - considering that you'll need an natural 20 before long, AND it takes 250 XP each time.

"...An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. ...An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). ...An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any)."

If you do this as a "plant," you ability score will be only 3d6 each for Int, Wis and Cha, plus no bonus hit die. Tossing that out, let's look at "animal:

Int becomes 3d6. Cha and HD go up. Languages may go down or up, depending on who cast the spell.

How is "...The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it..." supoosed to apply?

It ought to be pretty darn obvious that this does not work this way. It's ludicrous.

Method 3. Apply the notes from the post above this one on ECL and animal advancement. No more druid advancement for this fellow.

Method 4. Print out the rules [SRD (for 3.5)] and roll it up very tightly. Tell you player to bend over...

Snipehunt · Sep 10, 2003

I think Darkness is right - the wildshaped druid is a magical beast. Nothing in the rules says the target takes the type of a typical creature - it takes the "new form." Per the SRD:

The subject's creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

So, the question is, what is the "new form?" According to the definitions, the "new form" cannot be animal. If you polymorph something w/ intelligence >2 into a bear, say, it is not an animal - the definitition of animal requires:

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

A creature that would be an animal, but for higher intelligence, is a magical beast:

Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2.

So, the target changes to a magical beast - an animal with intelligence to high to be an animal. In other words, the target takes the "new form" of a magical beast - a smart bear.

BTW - anyone remember the wonder twins? Form of - a bear! Shape of - a bucket of water!

Artoomis · Sep 10, 2003

I like the way Snipehunt presented it.

The only other choice is that druids become really, really stupid when they take animal form.

Camarath · Sep 10, 2003

Artoomis said:
I can think of a few ways to nix this, if it was really necessary to do so in a manner other than simply saying, "no!".

Method 5. Errata spell your self.

Awaken
Transmutation
Level: Drd 5
Components: V, S, DF, XP
Casting Time: 24 hours
Range: Touch
Target: Animal or tree touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You awaken a tree or natural animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened).
The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it.
An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s.
An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any).
XP Cost: 250 XP.