[PR] The Association of OGL Publishers

[Wulf Ratbane]

Permit me to be the 9,354th person to note this looks like nothing more than a combination egofest/soapbox for Nemesis...

Bingo.

Can you please provide a SPECIFIC issue where this 'Trade Association' will provide some MEANINGFUL BENEFIT to its members?

Oh please, let's not. Don't decry the soapbox and then boost him up onto one.

All the resources the "small publisher" needs are already out there. You just have to put forth the effort and DO it, without expectation of someone greasing the skids for you.

There are folks who prefer to ACT, and there are folks who prefer to TALK.


Wulf

 

[Lizard]

Bingo.



Oh please, let's not. Don't decry the soapbox and then boost him up onto one.


Wulf

Just trying to be fair. If he can build a real case for the need for this organization, then, he deserves deeper consideration. If he just wants to toss around vague rhetoric hinting at a conspiracy by the 'big boys' to 'oppress the masses', then, he deserves to be ignored.

Let's see the cards on the table.

 

[Orcus]

Right now, the OGL market consists of two elements: established business entities which actually make a living for one or more people (and who are all too aware of all of the issues you raise since they worry about them daily), and their "cottage-industry" cohorts who do this primarily as a hobby.

See, this is what I am talking about. You havent produced anything so you really dont have any insight on how the industry operates. Yet you presume to speak about that which you do not understand.

I hate to break it to you, but there are really only two companies for the most part that fit into your first category: WotC and WW. You could argue that Atlas does too, but they only do because they do other non-d20 products. Green Ronin perhaps. AEG does other non-d20 things.

Everyone else does this as a second job or a hobby. Necromancer Games is my and Bill's second job and we certainly dont do it for a primary income. Take it from me, the game industry isnt really much of a primary income unless your name happens to be Monte Cook. So everyone in this industry for the most part is in your second category--even me. Same with Troll Lords and everyone else.

Clark

 

[JohnNephew]

Rather than starting a new trade association, it seems to me that a more productive path might be to work within an existing trade association -- say, GAMA (the Game Manufacturers' Association) or the GPA (Game Publishers Association) -- to establish something like a special committee for OGL issues. I would imagine that most of the issues of concern to OGL publishers are the same that concern small publishers in general, and get talked about a lot by GPA members, for instance (who tend to be very ready to share advice and information).

Having had a few years in this business, I've learned to be leery of the "we publishers need to cooperate!" calls. It happens every few years -- but out of the brainstorming sessions there is rarely some kind of formal structure like a new trade association. Rather, somewhere down the line someone usually takes initiative to find a solution to some of the problems that led to the "hey we should cooperate" issue. It seems to me that Wizards' Attic arose out of some of those kinds of discussions going on in the mid/late-90's (when a lot of companies were trying to figure out what to do as distribution was imploding with the withering of TSR and the CCG bust), for an example -- but the creative solution didn't come as some kind of communitarian effort, but rather someone taking an entrepreneurial approach to fill a void that everyone could see.

 

[NemesisPress]

..."it is hard to buy into your "I'm here to save the OGL and create a vibrant industry" when you havent contributed or even attempted to contribute to the industry in any way."

Except, of course, by getting off my butt and setting up an organization that will actually help both its members and the market grow (rather than arguing for a status quo where the big fish stay big, the small ones stay small, and the market reaches a steady-state plateau).


"The "my ideas are morally superior to yours and I know better than you" thing doesnt play well."

We seem to be having a problem with both terminology and purpose here. I've never argued about morals or ethics. I've merely explained what the true potential for OGL games is and what the advantages a (free and independent) trade organization would be for the industry.

All I really am saying is that the OGL market has matured to the stage where it can benefit from the same principles and practices used in every other industry - from automobile manufacturing to advertising. A few basic business principles could go a long way to helping this industry grow and thrive - but first we have to get past the "cult of the personality" that reigns here (and its condescending attitude).

 

[Melan]

Right now, the OGL market consists of two elements: established business entities which actually make a living for one or more people (and who are all too aware of all of the issues you raise since they worry about them daily), and their "cottage-industry" cohorts who do this primarily as a hobby.

DING! Wrong. Most OGL producers are operated by people who do this as a hobby, and not as a livelihood. That is, amateurs. Some exceptions do exist - Monte Cook, Mike Mearls, etc., but the average publisher is just someone who puts out products on his free time. This includes Necromancer Games, Troll Lord Games and many more. As strange as it sounds, nobody has gotten rich on d20, or at least not the d20 publishers.
And do you know how the big ones got big? They actually put out good product. Fiery Dragon, Necromancer Games, Troll Lord Games were among those who didn't exist before 3e (I might be wrong on Troll Lord... Not sure, though). But there was no evil wizardry or even a devil's pact with the WotC - no, just adventurous spirit and good ideas.

But you are absolutely right. If all you want out of this is an enjoyable hobby and a small circle of admirers, then there is absolutely no need for you to join (though we'd still like your input).

What do you want to accomplish? Is there a way to expand the "RPG Industry" (heh heh, the Industry - even the name brings a smile to my face) beyond cottage? I think not.
And this state of the industry is perfect for the little guy, because he actually has a chance to be heard or even grow into a respectable company. With PDF publishing, the costs of publication is close to zero. Isn't this good in your opinion?

 

[Napftor]

Oh, and another little tip: dont get antagonistic with posters, like that little quip to Napftor. That is no way to get people to join your organization or to take you serioiusly.

Thanks, buddy. I wasn't even going to respond.

 

[Melan]

..."it is hard to buy into your "I'm here to save the OGL and create a vibrant industry" when you havent contributed or even attempted to contribute to the industry in any way."

Except, of course, by getting off my butt and setting up an organization that will actually help both its members and the market grow (rather than arguing for a status quo where the big fish stay big, the small ones stay small, and the market reaches a steady-state plateau).

Setting up a website and an ezBoard is your contribution? Oh please. Good ideas, even excellent ones are dime a dozen. If you are able to make this association into something beneficial - my hat's off to you. Until then, you truly are one from the thousand who want to save the industry.

All I really am saying is that the OGL market has matured to the stage where it can benefit from the same principles and practices used in every other industry - from automobile manufacturing to advertising. A few basic business principles could go a long way to helping this industry grow and thrive - but first we have to get past the "cult of the personality" that reigns here (and its condescending attitude).

To speak of the OGL market as anything beyond a corner (albeit large corner) of a marginal niche hobby is pretentious. As I said, this doesn't even qualify as "business" in the eyes of a serious businessman.
Also, what is this "cult of the personality" you speak of? Respect towards people who make good d20 supplements? Well, in that case, I am a happy cultist and ready to serve the cult leaders!
And condescending attitude? Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

[NemesisPress]

it seems to me that a more productive path might be to work within an existing trade association -- say, GAMA (the Game Manufacturers' Association) or the GPA (Game Publishers Association) -- to establish something like a special committee for OGL issues.

I would definitely agree that this should be done as well (though the question remains: why hasn't it?), but the OGL market is different enough and has the potential to be both big enough and to have enough of a far-ranging effect on the industry that an organization dedicated to this segment will be both extremely valuable and necessary

And GAMA and the GPA are very much "soft" organizations - being concerned primarily with information exchange and PR (important, but not the only issues). The Association for OGL Publishers is both much more specific and aimed at providing much more real-world support once fully established. However, just as with websites like this, they should complement each other rather than conflict.

(I'd also like to point out the differences in membership requirements. How many OGL publishers are currently paying GAMA dues or would want to?)



"Having had a few years in this business, I've learned to be leery of the "we publishers need to cooperate!" calls. It happens every few years -- but out of the brainstorming sessions there is rarely some kind of formal structure like a new trade association."

Well, you're in luck, because now there is! I recognize that empty calls for any kind of cooperation are just not realistic. That's why this organization has been introduced with both a specific mandate and with safeguards to keep it both open and responsive to the membership as a whole - and not to just become a tool of the already well-established members of the industry.

 

[HellHound]

From the Charter:

"No member may restrict or encourage the restricted use of an OGL in any way."

So, you wouldn't accept Wizards of the Coast as a member, obviously, since they have restricted elements of the Open Game License version 1.0a inside sections 6, 7, 8, and 10?

Or are you refering to some other Open Game License, or one the organization plans on penning themselves?

ALso, you keep saying that the organization now exists... who is an active, VOTING member of this organization as it stands? Does it really represent the industry in any way?