[PR] The Association of OGL Publishers

[Wulf Ratbane]

Also, what is this "cult of the personality" you speak of?

It's a thinly veiled dig at Clark.

Most folks respect Clark because he's successful, he's helpful, he's knowledgeable, and he doesn't have to include IANAL when he doles out advice.

This annoys Nemesis, who has mistaken the wisdom of folks who respect the wisdom of others as a "cult of personality."

It's easier to understand if you simply acknowledge that Nemesis is the revolutionary genius, and the rest of us are fools.


Wulf

 

[NemesisPress]

"Setting up a website and an ezBoard is your contribution? Oh please. Good ideas, even excellent ones are dime a dozen. If you are able to make this association into something beneficial - my hat's off to you. Until then, you truly are one from the thousand who want to save the industry."

So your point is that unless and until it puts money in your pocket you won't get involved? It's called an "association" for a reason - it is only as good or as strong as the members that are involved.


"To speak of the OGL market as anything beyond a corner (albeit large corner) of a marginal niche hobby is pretentious. As I said, this doesn't even qualify as "business" in the eyes of a serious businessman."

It's all relative. To someone who either makes his/her living or even just dedicates a substantial portion of their time and effort to this industry, I think it counts as both a business and, hopefully, a passion. However, the real danger is when you think that because it's relatively small that established business principles don't apply here.

"Also, what is this "cult of the personality" you speak of? Respect towards people who make good d20 supplements? Well, in that case, I am a happy cultist and ready to serve the cult leaders!"

I'd call it unthinking blind obediance and kowtowing to people who use their business position and connections to justify not only selfish and self-serving political platforms, but rude and boorish behavior and intimidation tactics. It's about time someone stood up and called a spade a spade.

 

[dreamthief]

.. and how much would membership be? What kind of 'help' are you talking about that companies can't get from the Net? Legal help doesn't come cheap, or free. What kind of help are you talking about? d20 publishers have very little time as it is, and most are doing this as a hobby, rather than a vocation. Can you talk specifically about 'exactly' what the plans are, rather than throwing the standard terms? Who's going to invest the time? Is there anyone else interesting in become President or to head the organization?

From how the call and the impetus for this organization came about, it's fairly obvious to me that it won't work out. Come back with a more detailed and concrete plan rather than vague mumbo-jumbo about helping us create, market or sell products that we can't already access or know about. Then we have something worth considering.

 

[Eosin the Red]

Well, lets see.

I noticed that you have not posted this "Trade Organization" on any other RPG websites.

I suggest that you try it on RPG.Net. That should be fun - they aren't polite over there.

You should also try Morality.com

While you are at it the OGL-L might be a fun place to start. They have some cool info for beginners (of course, Orcus is responsible for alot of that stuff so you might just want to ignore it).

Children of the Grave Press would likely be interested - they have a website, I think.

Your investment so far - $14.95 Domain Registration, 1 hour putting together a website, 1 hour registering to ensure that people can donate to your organization, 2 hours typing by and large obnoxious posts that display your overwhelming ignorance of the basics of the OGL, and 2 hours of mental (Eric's Grandmother).

As a CITIZEN of ENWorld - your treatment of those publishers who make an effort to come here on their free time and HELP any monkey off of the street that thinks he has what it takes to be a d20 publisher - is down right offensive. If I made as big a jerk of myself (and I have), I would die of embarrassment but not before I apologized to a few people.

I don't have the power, but holy smokes do I wish ENWorld banned folks a little more frequently.

 

[Lizard]

It's all relative. To someone who either makes his/her living or even just dedicates a substantial portion of their time and effort to this industry,

Said category seems NOT to include you, since you don't seem to have actually produced anything in this industry..

I think it counts as both a business and, hopefully, a passion. However, the real danger is when you think that because it's relatively small that established business principles don't apply here.

Specifically WHICH business principles? NAME THEM. Tell how they are being ignored.

I'd call it unthinking blind obediance and kowtowing to people who use their business position and connections to justify not only selfish and self-serving political platforms, but rude and boorish behavior and intimidation tactics. It's about time someone stood up and called a spade a spade.

Except that, at the moment, your refusal to discuss concretes means you're calling a spade a "you know...a thingie...you all know what I mean...the metal thing...you know!".

 

[NemesisPress]

"...has mistaken the wisdom of folks who respect the wisdom of others as a "cult of personality."


You misunderstand my point completely. It's just that in every group there's an informal leader. Sometimes leaders come to the fore through positive works - and sometimes through obnoxious intimidation. Sadly, some leaders who rose via the first method, rely on the second to maintain their position when they feel it slipping. The irony, of course, is that it's not the leader's actions that are even relevent - it's the followers that count. If all they can conceive of is following (like the proverbial sheep), then they have found the ideal leader, as well as a sense of security.

If, however, they stand up to be counted, then they realize both that they are independent, free-thinking individuals and that that security they thought they had was merely an illusion.

So it's a parable about followers - not leaders. Followers always get the leader they deserve.

 

[Melan]

So your point is that unless and until it puts money in your pocket you won't get involved? It's called an "association" for a reason - it is only as good or as strong as the members that are involved.

Fer chrissakes, I am just a fan who buys modules and the occasional sourcebook! Why would I want to join? On the other hand, you are right: if this association can attract serious membership, it will be as good and as strong as the number of members. We will see - but until you or the Association puts something on the table, you are just another netizen with a webpage and an ezBoard. Then again, so does jsmith5879@aol.com.

It's all relative. To someone who either makes his/her living or even just dedicates a substantial portion of their time and effort to this industry, I think it counts as both a business and, hopefully, a passion. However, the real danger is when you think that because it's relatively small that established business principles don't apply here.

Some business principles do apply, but the very nature of this beast makes it a different market from, say, a newspaper or even textbooks. What we have is a low barrier to entry, low profit margins, small print runs kind of industry with high one big player, D&D ( NOT d20 ). Therefore, many tried techniques will not work. For example, look at the marketing thread: although there is a potential target audience outside the established fanbase, there isn't enough money to reach it.

"Also, what is this "cult of the personality" you speak of? Respect towards people who make good d20 supplements? Well, in that case, I am a happy cultist and ready to serve the cult leaders!"

I'd call it unthinking blind obediance and kowtowing to people who use their business position and connections to justify not only selfish and self-serving political platforms, but rude and boorish behavior and intimidation tactics. It's about time someone stood up and called a spade a spade.

Well, let's call a spade a spade: I have more respect to Clark Peterson than you (and I have some 1200 posts on the Necromancer Boards, which probably means I am a fan of his company). Why? because Necromancer published some very good modules, acquired the Judges Guild license and, what's more, actually listens to its customers. No evil wizardry here: if you are a decent guy with good supplemets, you get my gaming dollars (or, to be exact, forints) and my respect to boot. Rude and boorish behaviour, however, will beget open ridicule on public message boards. And intimidation? Haven't seen it yet in the d20 field, and believe me, I have been following it with interest since before its inception.

 

[Melan]

"...has mistaken the wisdom of folks who respect the wisdom of others as a "cult of personality."


You misunderstand my point completely. It's just that in every group there's an informal leader. Sometimes leaders come to the fore through positive works - and sometimes through obnoxious intimidation. Sadly, some leaders who rose via the first method, rely on the second to maintain their position when they feel it slipping. ... If, however, they stand up to be counted, then they realize both that they are independent, free-thinking individuals and that that security they thought they had was merely an illusion.

Why not call a spade a spade? Who is/are this/these individual(s), why do you think he/she/they are slipping, and how do they use intimidation to maintain their position? Details, please! Because, without details, this is just baseless accusation levelled at mist and vapor.


PS: Mods, please don't close this thread, let it just run its course.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

You misunderstand my point completely... it's a parable about followers - not leaders.

No, I understood your point perfectly, which is why my reply was so perfectly stated. I'll repeat it for you:

You have mistaken the wisdom of those who respect the wisdom of others as folly.

 

[Inzae]

What the ....

Is this never going to end.

Looooook, here's the deal. You don't need this association. What on *** green earth is this organization going to do for anyone.

You need advice, help, pointers on legal issues, distribution, trade dress, advertising etc. Just ask.

There are no evil machinations afoot here. There are no corporate beasts waiting to pounce, there are - to my knowledge - no unfriendly takeovers (are there even any public companies out there?)

Everyone here is willing to throw in a helping hand. All you have to do is ask. I mean my *** they are all gamers, and who in their right mind is going to move into the gaming community to make money via lawsuits, takeovers, forced closures etc. No one.

As for small companies needing help. We sure as &*^% did. And you know what - we got it (a few hard lessons along the way also). We got it for free - no organizations, no voting, no long, drawn out, windy, bloated discussions with committees, bylaws, voting booths, presidents and such. We just asked and everyone has helped. Particularly helpful have been John Nephew (Atlas), Ryan Dancey (WoTC), Clark Peterson (Necromancer), Eric Roah (SP? - sorry - distributor Wizards Attic), Aldo Ghiozzi (Impressions) and a host of others that I am just not going to mention cuz' I'm running out of steam here.

Hell, email me and ask and I'll give ya whatever advice I can - really. Troll Lord Games.

I mean really - not being mean nor anything - what is the organization going to bring to the table? What benefit will I have 24 hours after joiining? Are sells going to increase, is my distribution going to increase, is advertising going to be cheaper. Is legal help available? I would like to know what, exactly, will the organization give me for joining - other than a vote.

Not meaning to be mean here, but this smacks of conspiracy theories and such and that really gets my gall.

really I am not being mean, come by the booth at gen con, we'll go out and have a beer - on me!!!!!!!

I'll give you my artists list, hook you up with a distributor, a fulfillment house, d20 editors, we'll even publish your mod for your company (you have to front the 1st print run money though) and put it in distribution.

This is the friendliest and most helpful community of producers in the world. There is no need for an organization that, IMHO, will likely do little more than stimey small publishers growth. Its the free market.

Most of all though, the leg work and up front cash is on you. we all did it. I'm reduced to 1 six pack of guiness a day - i have never been so poor in my life. Hell, I gave up a trip to Timbuctoo to do this this summer. (Idiot that I am)

Anyway. My advice, drop the association, produce a good product, go to gamma, get it in distribution, and build your company. Let people know that you are planning to use their stuff and have at.

Good luck and signing out.

LOL I gave up smoking today - never going to do that again. I'm just a quitter. Now if I can quit quitting smoking I'l be all right again.

The Onery Troll.

Sorry for the mess people.
Davis
Troll Lord Games