PrC Multiclassing Arcane Archer and IOoB broken?

[mkletch]

The ranged sneak attack of the OoBI is 'nice', but a rogue could do just as well, with more damage dice. Close combat shot is nice, but a 5' step does just as well 95% of the time. Free attack is good, unless you face intelligent opponents that don't draw AoOs. Playing point buy, wisdom is pretty low on any fighter's list, so Zen Archery is irrelevant. And for Superior Focus/Spec, I'll spend 5100gp on Bracer of Archery instead of burning 7 character levels. By the time you get to banked shot, the levels you have spent for the other abilities seem far too many for the result.

I'm not saying that OoBI can't have its sweet spot; any class can (even a diviner). But there seem to be easier and/or quicker ways to get the same results. Granted, the Will saves are excellent, and if you don;t like to play elves, the Arcane Archer is obviously out.

-Fletch!

 

[Storm Raven]

The ranged sneak attack of the OoBI is 'nice', but a rogue could do just as well, with more damage dice.

And a lower BAB. And no specialization.

Close combat shot is nice, but a 5' step does just as well 95% of the time.

Unless you are fighting creatures with reach, which become relatively common at mid to high levels.

Free attack is good, unless you face intelligent opponents that don't draw AoOs.

It happens often enough to be a valuable edge, especially if someone in the party has combat reflexes and a reach weapon.

Playing point buy, wisdom is pretty low on any fighter's list, so Zen Archery is irrelevant.

It is not low on a ranger's list of wants, and many archer characters have a few levels of ranger.

And for Superior Focus/Spec, I'll spend 5100gp on Bracer of Archery instead of burning 7 character levels.

You know, you can have both the Superior Focus/Specialization suite and the Bracers. Between the focuses, specializations, and Bracers, you have +4 to attacks and +5 to damage, you can have them all at 12th level if you move as quickly as possible to get the PrC.

 

[Rackhir]

Excellent response Storm Raven, you hit nearly all the points that I would have.

The only things I would add to your response are

1) Wisdom bonuses buffs the will save (not an insignificant factor when hitting medium-high levels) and spot checks which can be important if you want to utilize the full range on your bow. So wisdom should not be last on the bow fighter list of stats (I'd say the ever dumped charisma). Also at the levels where Zen Archery is going to start kicking in (roughly 13+) a +2 or +4 wisdom item, is going to be readily available. So even without a native bonus the char can still benefit from it.

2) For some reason the bonuses for the Bracers of Archery are reversed from what one would expect. They are +2 to hit and only +1 to damage (damage bonus within 30' Range). So while they do give you a slightly better to hit bonus than imp wpn spec, their damage bonus is worse than imp wpn focus. Considering that "to hit" bonuses are not generally a problem with archers, you have to give greater weight to available damage bonuses.

3) The Thirty foot range limit on many of the archer's bonuses, does mean that they will generally be within a standard move of most opponents, so do not underestimate the importance of Combat shot.

 

[mkletch]

If you are depending on a +1 or +2 bonus difference to turn the tide, you are probably screwed anyway. If my Will save were two points higher, it would only rarely be noticed. If my damage were +1 higher per attack, OK, that might be 5-7 points per round. Against creatures with 100's of hit points, and when my attacks already do 100-150 points of damage on a bad round, who cares. A +1 or +2 to spot because of a higher wisdom is unnoticable when you have 15-20 ranks in spot. Little bonuses cease to matter, except in exceptionally rare circumstances, above 12th level.

A creature with reach will typically advance to the limit of its reach. If it stands right in your face, you have other options. You can always just take the AoO, then shoot it five or six times. Seems like a fair trade to me.

I do, however, like my seeker arrow, phase arrow, and hail of arrows. They let me do things I cannot do otherwise. An extra 17 points of damage from the occasional ranged sneak attack is irrelevant in the big picture. And using bank shot to deliver this extra 17 damage is worthless, since I have to give up three or four other attacks, any one of which will do double that in damage.

Hey, if you like the class, take it. Personally, I feel that OoBI lacks flavor and uniqueness. Then again, I like Mountain Dew at room temperature, so everybody has their own preference.

-Fletch!

 

[Rackhir]

If you are depending on a +1 or +2 bonus difference to turn the tide, you are probably screwed anyway. If my Will save were two points higher, it would only rarely be noticed. If my damage were +1 higher per attack, OK, that might be 5-7 points per round.

A +2 to will save represents something on the order of a 50% to 25% increase in the will save for a typical fighter type at even fairly high level. So that's not exactly something that is going to be "rarely noticed".

Well, with zen archery and the imp wpn spec/focus, that could be another +2 to +4 to hit and +2 to damage per arrow over what the AA would have. Not insignificant bonuses and remember if you don't hit you don't do any damage. These bonuses could easily make the difference between hitting or not with your last iterative attack.

A creature with reach will typically advance to the limit of its reach. If it stands right in your face, you have other options. You can always just take the AoO, then shoot it five or six times. Seems like a fair trade to me.

For a class with lower HD, Elf Con penalties and several levels of mage d4 HD. Taking an AoO from a medium/high level monster is not really a great idea. A single AoO from a giant nearly cut the AA in half, in my previous campaign (did about half her HP). A OoBI with a better HD and an average of at least +1 HP/per HD is in much better position to take damage.

I do, however, like my seeker arrow, phase arrow, and hail of arrows. They let me do things I cannot do otherwise. An extra 17 points of damage from the occasional ranged sneak attack is irrelevant in the big picture. And using bank shot to deliver this extra 17 damage is worthless, since I have to give up three or four other attacks, any one of which will do double that in damage.

Seeker arrow and phase arrow frankly seem to be of dubious usefulness and at best infrequent use to me. Certainly no better than banked shot. Hail of Arrows is the one truly sweet ability that the AA gets, but it can be duplicated by an epic level feat and by the time you are getting Hail of Arrows, you are nearly at Epic levels anyway (depending on exactly how many mage levels you took). Banked shot and the sneak attack are yes generaly infrequently useful, but don't forget that they can be devastating under the right circumstances and with the proper magic items/spells (ring of blink or imp invis spell) can easily set up situations where you can be getting the sneak attack damage all the time.

Hey, if you like the class, take it. Personally, I feel that OoBI lacks flavor and uniqueness. Then again, I like Mountain Dew at room temperature, so everybody has their own preference.

-Fletch!

To each their own I guess. Except....

Ugh! Mountan Dew at room temerature? I think this needs a thread of it's own to debate how horrible that is.

 

[Orco42]

but because Forsaker can be taken early (2nd level for human fighters, 4th for human other and demihuman fighters)

Not quite. You need to be a 3rd level human fighter (you don't have enough feats until level 3).

Now if you can convince your DM to let you be a Half-Drow/Half-Dwarf Cleric with the Drow and Dwarf Domains you can have all the feats done at level 1.

 

[mkletch]

A +2 to will save represents something on the order of a 50% to 25% increase in the will save for a typical fighter type at even fairly high level. So that's not exactly something that is going to be "rarely noticed".

If a 16th or 17th level character does not have a couple +6 ability items (one to focus on the class, andother to plug holes in saves), and a +5 cloak of resistance, you are in trouble anyway. My character is 19th level total now, with F/R/W bonuses of +21/+30/+18. A +2 bonus to Will would not really matter.

Well, with zen archery and the imp wpn spec/focus, that could be another +2 to +4 to hit and +2 to damage per arrow over what the AA would have. Not insignificant bonuses and remember if you don't hit you don't do any damage. These bonuses could easily make the difference between hitting or not with your last iterative attack.

Uh, every arrow fired is +5 (and keen with 2 levels of deepwood sniper). That's a +5 to hit, and damage, plus bow. Yes, you could have GMW, but we're talking about a standalone character, not a party composition. Sometimes, it does come down to what the character can do all by his/her lonesome. If you are greater dispelled, or Mordy disjoined you are in a massive world of hurt. I'm assuming the cleric is busy doing his own thing during this mess, and can't take time to babysit the archer that now cannot damage the target with DR 25/+3. Every time I shoot an arrow, it is a virtual 1000gp that really only cost me 2cp becasue of that ability. And it can get better after 21st level, unlike GMW. Not sure if we'll do any epic adventuring, but I want my bases covered. Every +6 arrow would be 7200gp! I'll shoot nine in a typical round.

Flip through the MM or SRD. How many outsiders can cast dispel magic or greater dispelling at will? Most of the ones that matter to a 16th+ level character. Bad news for GMW, especially if there are multiple opponents doing targeted and area dispels. Oh, and dragons with many levels of sorcerer will certainly have some method of dispelling. An archer without magical arrows is a non-entity in 3E, at any level above 3rd. I did not get AA until 7th (the quickest you can), and it was rough in a few spots.

For a class with lower HD, Elf Con penalties and several levels of mage d4 HD. Taking an AoO from a medium/high level monster is not really a great idea. A single AoO from a giant nearly cut the AA in half, in my previous campaign (did about half her HP). A OoBI with a better HD and an average of at least +1 HP/per HD is in much better position to take damage.

Only a single level in wizard, 6 in fighter. You can help yourself alot with mirror image, displacement, +Con items/spells, etc. It rarely comes down to a question of raw hit points. Trading one hit for five, plus a multishot with a haste action is fine. Any character that gets swarmed is in serious trouble anyway.

Seeker arrow and phase arrow frankly seem to be of dubious usefulness and at best infrequent use to me. Certainly no better than banked shot. Hail of Arrows is the one truly sweet ability that the AA gets, but it can be duplicated by an epic level feat and by the time you are getting Hail of Arrows, you are nearly at Epic levels anyway (depending on exactly how many mage levels you took). Banked shot and the sneak attack are yes generaly infrequently useful, but don't forget that they can be devastating under the right circumstances and with the proper magic items/spells (ring of blink or imp invis spell) can easily set up situations where you can be getting the sneak attack damage all the time.

Rapid shot is the bread and butter of any archer. It is statistically better than a regular attack in every case except when you need to roll an 18 to hit (regular is better), or if you need a 17 or 19 to hit (no difference). Seeker and phase arrows ignore concealment, cover and, for the phase, armor. The key is that they can be done with a haste action to supplement the rapid shot, or after moving. The banked shot denies you both the flexibility of haste/rapid shot or the ability to move after firing if you are not hasted.

It all comes down to flexibility. Other than superior focus/spec, which are dubious compared to enchant arrow, all of the OoBI abilities deny you flexibility. Sneak and free shot depend on specific (and possibly rare at high level) situations, banked shot is barely useful and nails you to one spot. GMW depends on other characters that may or may not be able to help you and monsters that are willing to let you keep it. Only close combat shot is truly useful all by itself. I considered taking two levels of OoBI, but figured the second level in DWS and level 10 in AA were more useful. I'll just take Combat Archery at 21st or 24th level.

If I had ten levels of OoBI instead of 10 levels of AA, I and my party members would have died many, many times. We have had some deaths anyway, but none from AoOs. Three characters doing the adventure path modules from WotC is kind of tight. OoBI would certainly not have gotten us as far. Not burning a level on wizard (diviner, actually) would have been nice, but the +1 BAB only delayed my gaining extra attacks by one level.

And to nip another fiber on this thread, the Forsaker is irrelevant, because his/her damage reduction would not allow attacks with a bow to penetrate opponents' DR. Your damage reduction lets you bypass opponents' DR only with your natural attacks. Yes, the forsaker has a tweak on that, allowing the character's weapon to be considered a natural attack. But the arrow is not the weapon, the bow is. The ammunition must carry the enhancement bonus to penetrate DR. Forsakers do not extend their natural weapons to ammunition, only their weapons. A subtle but important distinction.

-Fletch!

 

[Storm Raven]

If you are depending on a +1 or +2 bonus difference to turn the tide, you are probably screwed anyway.

[snip some stuff]

Little bonuses cease to matter, except in exceptionally rare circumstances, above 12th level.

Every character gets iterative attacks. The lower BAB iterative attacks are unlikely to hit unless you have lots of bonuses to your attack roll. That makes every single bonus to your attack rolls important. Sure a rapid firing archer usually hits with his first two shots, but how about his third? Fourth? And so on. . .

A creature with reach will typically advance to the limit of its reach.

A smart creature with reach facing a missile armed attacker (or spellcaster) will envelop their opponent in their threatened area.

If it stands right in your face, you have other options. You can always just take the AoO, then shoot it five or six times. Seems like a fair trade to me.

Only if his AoO doesn't do as much damage as your shots. And doesn't do ability damage, or negative energy damage, or any of the other nasty things one can do with an AoO (like Sunder your bow, or Disarm you, let's see you make your 5 or 6 attacks when your bow is two splinters of wood or lying in the mud).

 

[Rackhir]

If a 16th or 17th level character does not have a couple +6 ability items (one to focus on the class, andother to plug holes in saves), and a +5 cloak of resistance, you are in trouble anyway. My character is 19th level total now, with F/R/W bonuses of +21/+30/+18. A +2 bonus to Will would not really matter.

Even with a cloak of resistance +5 you've got to have some pretty obscenely high stats to hit those kind of saves. I calculate the saves from your classes at +12/+12/+7, with the cloak that means you've got a 18 con (after a -2 Con penalty), 36 dex? and 20 wis. Now I'm sure that you have some stat bonus items, (probably 2-4 +6 Items I'm guessing), but some how I don't think this character was done with a point buy... With that kind of wisdom, why you wouldn't want the OoBI Zen Archery bonus is beyond me.

Uh, every arrow fired is +5 (and keen with 2 levels of deepwood sniper). That's a +5 to hit, and damage, plus bow. Yes, you could have GMW, but we're talking about a standalone character, not a party composition. Sometimes, it does come down to what the character can do all by his/her lonesome. If you are greater dispelled, or Mordy disjoined you are in a massive world of hurt. I'm assuming the cleric is busy doing his own thing during this mess, and can't take time to babysit the archer that now cannot damage the target with DR 25/+3. Every time I shoot an arrow, it is a virtual 1000gp that really only cost me 2cp becasue of that ability. And it can get better after 21st level, unlike GMW. Not sure if we'll do any epic adventuring, but I want my bases covered. Every +6 arrow would be 7200gp! I'll shoot nine in a typical round.

Flip through the MM or SRD. How many outsiders can cast dispel magic or greater dispelling at will? Most of the ones that matter to a 16th+ level character. Bad news for GMW, especially if there are multiple opponents doing targeted and area dispels. Oh, and dragons with many levels of sorcerer will certainly have some method of dispelling. An archer without magical arrows is a non-entity in 3E, at any level above 3rd. I did not get AA until 7th (the quickest you can), and it was rough in a few spots.

This is a thread about the merits of a class, not the "Sultan's of Smack", Characters do not generally in a D&D game exist in a vacume and if you crock the conditions enough you can always construct a situation where one class or another is useless. Mages or Clerics suck compared to fighters, if you assume they are an anti-magic field. I don't know of anyone who would claim that was the case outside of one.

In anycase, you're assuming that an OoBI archer who's hit 19th level HASN'T bothered to obtain some method of getting GMW on a daily basis? A GMW/Quiver of Elhona is something I'd figure any archer type character would have obtained by that point. So a simple 3rd level spell trumps half the abilities that the AA gets, while the OoBI at least has the sneak attack damage of 5d6 PER Arrow, which with the proper items (ring of blink or imp invis, if we are assuming the resources available to a 19th lv character) can be done pretty much at will.

Yes GMW can be dispelled and that is an edge that the AA's have over the OoBI, but it's a small edge and a 19th lv char is going to have ways around that either with a stock of magic arrows for just that sort of circumstances (+3 will handle 90% of non epic DR) or by simply recasting GMW. Any high level character hit by a Mordakain's Disjuction is going to be hurting period. It destroys MAGIC ITEMS.

DR in monsters is not common in any case until well after the characters hit 7th level, unless your DM is buffing the modules, I'm fairly certain that aside from a succubus in Forge (not an encounter you're supposed to fight), there are no creatures with DR until you hit Speaker in Dreams, which I think is a minimum of 6-7th IIRC. So I don't know why you are claming an archer without + arrows is a non-entitiy above 3rd.

Only a single level in wizard, 6 in fighter. You can help yourself alot with mirror image, displacement, +Con items/spells, etc. It rarely comes down to a question of raw hit points. Trading one hit for five, plus a multishot with a haste action is fine. Any character that gets swarmed is in serious trouble anyway.

Oh, no doubt a level in wizard can come in handy, with those spells, though frankly I'd concentrate more on Shield and True Strike. But I also recall from my previous campaign that the AA often spent several rounds buffing herself with combat duration spells rather than shooting at things.

Seeker and phase arrows ignore concealment, cover and, for the phase, armor. The key is that they can be done with a haste action to supplement the rapid shot, or after moving. The banked shot denies you both the flexibility of haste/rapid shot or the ability to move after firing if you are not hasted.

Seeker arrow and phase arrow are also both only 1/day as is Storm of Arrows, rather limiting their usefulness even if they are easier to use than banked shot. The ability to use each of those just once mean that if you have to use them, they aren't that useful, because one shot isn't going to be taking down your opponents at those levels.

If I had ten levels of OoBI instead of 10 levels of AA, I and my party members would have died many, many times. We have had some deaths anyway, but none from AoOs. Three characters doing the adventure path modules from WotC is kind of tight. OoBI would certainly not have gotten us as far. Not burning a level on wizard (diviner, actually) would have been nice, but the +1 BAB only delayed my gaining extra attacks by one level.
-Fletch!

You clearly have an unusual and quite perilous situation. The 4 character "typical" party always struck me as only barely sufficient to cover the basics (mage, cleric, fighter, rogue). Also from your comments about the unavailabilty of GMW from your teammates, sounds like your inter-party cooperation could use some improvement.

Perhaps OoBI would not be as well suited to your party, but that hardly makes it useless and ineffective. I have run in a campaign with AA and OoBI characters for a year and a half, so I feel I can make my assertions with some confidence. The AA and my OoBI were always more or less running neck and neck for effectiveness, with my OoBI generally having somewhat of an edge.

 

[mkletch]

Every character gets iterative attacks. The lower BAB iterative attacks are unlikely to hit unless you have lots of bonuses to your attack roll. That makes every single bonus to your attack rolls important. Sure a rapid firing archer usually hits with his first two shots, but how about his third? Fourth? And so on. . .

A smart creature with reach facing a missile armed attacker (or spellcaster) will envelop their opponent in their threatened area.

Only if his AoO doesn't do as much damage as your shots. And doesn't do ability damage, or negative energy damage, or any of the other nasty things one can do with an AoO (like Sunder your bow, or Disarm you, let's see you make your 5 or 6 attacks when your bow is two splinters of wood or lying in the mud).

Yes, yes. This is all well and good. But frankly, most/all of these issues can be mitigated with magic items or spells. character levels are precious. Plan what you can with items, fill the gaps with character class abilities.

Attacks:+37/+37/+32/+27/+22/+39 (speed armor), so I'll constantly hit all but the mightiest dragons and major NPCs.

Damage: +1 acidic/shocking/icy burst, holy, screaming mighty (+4 Str) composite long bow and every arrow is +5 keen (with imp crit), so the damage is intense against any opponent. Certainly enough to justify sucking up the periodic AoO.

My AC is 43 and my touch AC is 27. Few things concern me except sunder, and I've managed that through magical hardening and other methods (like a spare but lesser bow in a glove or storing, and another glove to hide the primary bow as a free action if it is endangered). Helm of teleportation takes care of being grappled or "enveloped" in a reach creature's threatened area.

Let's face it. We've seen it here an on other boards. High level characters are defined by their equipment. An 18th level character with no equipment is a snail out of shell, prey for a character several levels lower with full gear. For high level adventuring, you plan your gear and pick levels to complement and enhance that gear. AA complements an archer's gear with arrows and abilities not duplicated by usual magic items. OoBI doesn't really complement any sort of gear. It's really crappy to think this way (it's pretty much the diametric opposite of roleplaying), but it's, well, practical. For character's 10th level and beyond, the most fearsome spell in the game is Mordenkainen's Disjunction.