PrC Multiclassing Arcane Archer and IOoB broken?

[mkletch]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Magic item pricing

With speed armor you are getting two substantial bonuses. First a extra standard action. This means a great deal to many classes, especially spell casting classes, since they can either get off a full turn spell in one turn or can cast two spells per round. That has to be worth at least a +3 bonus. Second it is providing a +4 to AC bonus which is in some respects, better than an enhancement bonus, since it should apply vs touch attacks. I'm not sure exactly why you are dragging square roots into things, but I would say the situation is more similar to having a +4 armor with a +3 special ability, so you would calculate the cost as that for a +7 bonus, like you do with a +3 Icy Burst - Holy Sword.

You miss the whole point. The effective bonuses are calculated with square roots. I'm not dragging them anywhere. You use them without knowing anytime you make a weapon with any special ability.

Icy Burst and Holy come from two totally different spells. The bonuses in speed armor or a speed weapon come from only a single spell: haste. Stop complaining about the armor and complain about the spell. Whether I have haste from armor or a potion, I get extra actions. Do you know how many potions of haste you can buy for 30,000gp? 40. How about a wand of haste with 50 charges for only 11,250? Are these overpowered as well?

-Fletch!

 

[Rackhir]

Re: Re: Re: Zen Archery

I FEAR the GOD WALL.


Scorch came to us after the last video-thon a frightened and broken man, scarred from seeing Bruce Boxleitner's nostrils larger than a man's head. That's just not right.

Well you were invited as well and are still welcome to drop by and watch something. If Scorch was broken by just the TV, just wait til I've got the new speakers I ordered. The sound should knock him right off...

 

[Rackhir]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Magic item pricing

You miss the whole point. The effective bonuses are calculated with square roots. I'm not dragging them anywhere. You use them without knowing anytime you make a weapon with any special ability.

Icy Burst and Holy come from two totally different spells. The bonuses in speed armor or a speed weapon come from only a single spell: haste. Stop complaining about the armor and complain about the spell. Whether I have haste from armor or a potion, I get extra actions. Do you know how many potions of haste you can buy for 30,000gp? 40. How about a wand of haste with 50 charges for only 11,250? Are these overpowered as well?

-Fletch!

What you seem to be missing is a DM who knows how to say "No". While there are a substantial number of people who would agree that Haste needs some revision (try the search function on Haste), you are clearly trying to play the straight numbers without regards to the effect on balance. Balance in a SYSTEM is not simply a matter of formulas, not every 3rd level spell is equal in power or should be equal cost in every situation or possible configuration. The job of the DM is to help impose a balance in situation where the system is inadiquate. It does not sound like your DM is doing that if you are getting away with suprious logic of the sort you are displaying here.

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Magic item pricing

Do you know how many potions of haste you can buy for 30,000gp? 40. How about a wand of haste with 50 charges for only 11,250? Are these overpowered as well?

Apples and oranges. Wands are limited use spell trigger items and usually use the spell at the minimum caster level (giving you 5 rounds of haste). Potions are limited use, must be drunk to be activated and usually minimum caster level items.

Comparing these in cost (or really, any other way) to a continuously beneficial use-activated item is just silly.

 

[mkletch]

Or perhaps we have a little more high-powered campaign than you are used to. My archer was crushed with a Destruction cast by a 23rd level epic cleric on Sunday, and I was still waiting at the end of the session for a True Resurrection. We added a new guy that night; he died too. I chalked it up to bad luck, but perhaps he was not prepared for this campaign.

We have two other campaigns going (we trade weeks, or did before summer), and the others vary in power level, availability of magic, etc. Sometimes its nice to pull out the stops and go crazy, fighting nightshades and dragons. Other times it's nice to feel that a +1 sword is precious. Variation in style is what makes such an abstract system playable.

We've done all of the WotC modules so far, and our little side adventure last week and this week was the only 'break', to tie up some character background threads. This sunday we'll probably start Bastion of Broken Souls, with a tasty EL 25+ red dragon. You don't get through that with three characters and weak gear.

It is not spurious logic. The logic is solid. Game balance is an illusion, never achievable. Again, Epic cleric, dropping greater ruin, destruction and implosion all over the place, with a dash of 33HD advanced Nalfeshnee gated in. All sorts of fun stuff. Not munchkin either, just high-end. Oh, she had +1 speed elven chain, too, buffed with Epic Mage Armor (+20 to AC). What's in your villain's wallet?

-Fletch!

 

[Storm Raven]

Or perhaps we have a little more high-powered campaign than you are used to.

The general assumption is that when classes and abilities are compared as this thread started with, they would be evaluated on the basis of a "standard" campaign, not on the basis of what idiosyncratic campaign one poster might be used.

Saying things like "the Consecrated Harrier sucks, the Templar is great" is of limited value unless you have a baseline of environmental factors to work with. The baseline assumed is that the "standard" game is being used. This means that people can adjust the information to their home games with a minimum of effort.

Your evaluations are colored by your "high powered" style of play. I'd wager that in a "standard" campaign your evaluations would change.

 

[mkletch]

I would risk to say that the series of:

Sunless Citadel
Forge of Fury
Speaker in Dreams
Standing Stone
Heart of Nightfang Spire
Deep Horizon
Lord of the Iron Fortress
<little side adventure>
Bastion of Broken Souls

is about as 'baseline' as you can get, almost by definition. Plus, the rules for cities/towns and magic item creation as presented in the DMG? Also pretty 'baseline'. We have no non-WotC materials in this game. Also 'baseline'.

I'll have to call it quits (again) on this thread. There is no more value in pursuing it further.

-Fletch!

 

[Rackhir]

... There is no more value in pursuing it further.

-Fletch!

Well I think we have found something we can agree on at last. Eh, Storm Raven?

 

[Skullfyre]

Prestige classes involving Archers.....

Arcane archer
Order Of the Bow Initiate
Deepwood Sniper
Peerless Archer
Blood Archer(Book of evil)
Heartseeker (Dragon 296)


Sooo many choices so many decisions.........






Take them all? Excellent!!!! (what a way to be an Uber archer)
Thank goodness for Epic level!!!!



*sits back and waits for people to comment*

 

[Spatzimaus]

I think the problem with this whole "how much does haste cost on an item?" debate is just a problem with the DMG formulas themselves.

Spell balance includes things like duration.
A continuous/persistent/use-activated at will effect ignores the spell's base duration.
Therefore, balancing item effects is difficult if anything can be made continuous (or activated at will). Ooh, I want an item that every turn hits me with a Cure Light Wounds! Only 2k by the DMG rules (use-activated, unlimited, caster level 1).

IMC, we just got rid of those types of items, and changed most of the DMG items to be limited charges (5 uses/day according to the cost guide). If you want a continuous item, price it based on the effects.