PRCs that dont offer full spellcasting progression

[Question]

PRCs like, say, elemental savant and argent savant have one crucial flaw : they do not have full spellcasting progression.

With the way arcane spellcasters are setup, unless you are already level 20, even one lost level of spellcasting progression is a big hit. For wizards, its half the levels needed to get to the next level of spells......for sorcs, its a even bigger hit because sorcs take more levels to get to the next spell level.

It seems highly counter productive to have spellcasting PRCs that do not have full spellcasting progression(excluding the ones meant for hybrid fighter/wiz builds or similar).

Thoughts?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

PRCs like, say, elemental savant and argent savant have one crucial flaw : they do not have full spellcasting progression.

With the way arcane spellcasters are setup, unless you are already level 20, even one lost level of spellcasting progression is a big hit. For wizards, its half the levels needed to get to the next level of spells......for sorcs, its a even bigger hit because sorcs take more levels to get to the next spell level.

It seems highly counter productive to have spellcasting PRCs that do not have full spellcasting progression(excluding the ones meant for hybrid fighter/wiz builds or similar).

Thoughts?

Well, the problem for spellcasting PrCs is that most (if not all) of the class abilities granted to spellcasters is "hidden" in spells. Attack Bonus, Hit Dice and Skill Points per level are usually not "negotiable", since they are already on the lower spectrum (especially true for Sorceror and Wizards).
But a PrC always grants extra abilities, making a class with a full spellcaser progression a "Deluxe" version of the base class.
This can be sometimes compensate by requiring feats or skills that aren't exactly good, but it's usually a weak compensation.

The Loremaster is an example on where you border on the "Deluxe Wizard" problem, without actually greating balancing problems - none of the Loremaster abilities will make him able to overpower his enemies. Flavourwise, a Loremaster is a lot more fun than a straight wizard, simply because of the extra abilities gained.

Other Prestige Classes are usually more troublesome, become they don't just give flavour abilities, they grant power. If you don't reduce spellcasting a bit, you will simply have a more powerful character than intented (indicated by Effective Character Level).

That said, there are alternatives to just losing spellcasting progression.
Look at the Archmage - to get the special abilities, Spellcasters have to sacrifice spell slots (instead of full caster levels). That might be in fact a good alternative solution, but it hasn't been explored often so far.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It seems highly counter productive to have spellcasting PRCs that do not have full spellcasting progression(excluding the ones meant for hybrid fighter/wiz builds or similar).

I agree. As a player I would not even consider a PrC without full progression. The loss of spell level is huge. It's also a matter of how often you game. We don't play often, so waiting another 6-12 months to gain a level for that spell level is a hard pill to swallow. If you gain a level every other week, it's not a big deal.

I like the flavor of a lot of the PrC's but some will never be chosen. Obviously, the loss of spellcasting at PrC level one is intended to curb cherry picking, but there has to be an alternative, like PrC XP penalties.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Just to totally subvert the thread:

Okay, everyone who wouldn't consider a PrC without full spellcasting progression, raise your hands.

Everyone who *would* play a sorcerer, despite the fact that they're one level behind wizards for most of their career, keep your hands raised.

Now, anybody whose hand is still raised: explain.

 

[Question]

Sorcs cast spells more often and cast them spontaneously.

You dont get anything as huge with those PRCs. Argent savant level 1's benefits are not worth a full spellcasting level obviously. Neither is elemental savanat level 5's energy focus +1.

 

[Andras]

I'm working on a Sorcerer as a backup/replacement character for a Barbarian I'm currently playing in a 17th level game now.

Sorc6, DragonHeartMage4, Incantrix 10+epic Incantrix

DragonHeart Mage costs me 1 caster level, but I get Draconic Breath and 2 bonus draconic feats (Draconic Power and Arcane Draconic Grace). I'm also taking Accelerate Metamagic: Quicken and either AccelMM: Maximize or Quick Recovery to negate Daze after casting Grtr Celerity.

In addition, I'm taking the Metamagic Specialist variation for Sorcerer.

This will be the first sorcerer I've played, but I'm liking the character a lot.

 

[irdeggman]

Sorcs cast spells more often and cast them spontaneously.

You dont get anything as huge with those PRCs. Argent savant level 1's benefits are not worth a full spellcasting level obviously. Neither is elemental savanat level 5's energy focus +1.

I'm sorry but IMO you are really wrong here.

Argent Savant (at 1st level) gets Force Specialization. +2 competence bonus on attack rolls made with force spells and +1 per die to damage.

Lets's see that translates into the equivalent of the improved weapon focus feat and sort of weapon specialization feat (some are only +1 to total. but a lot are +1 per die to damage). So 2 feats are not worth a single level of spell progression then?


Those can be huge benefits.

Now for the Elemental Savant it is not as clear cut.

Remember that there can be more than 1 reason to slow the spell progression - it might not be an equivalant swap at that level but might be a way to help bring the class back into line because of previous (or subsequent benefits).


The 6th level benefit of darkvision is really good as well as the progressive increrase in energy resistance. At 10th level it is energy immunity and change of type to elemental.

 

[Deset Gled]

Okay, everyone who wouldn't consider a PrC without full spellcasting progression, raise your hands.

I would consider it for a Wiz, but not for a Sorc. Getting behind by one level is bad, but playable. Getting behind by two levels is too much.

 

[Bront]

One or two levels is somewhat acceptable in a nearly full caster build. For non-pure caster concepts, it's even less of an issue. Also, there is some flavor involved as well, and some of the granted abilities of a caster class without full BAB are good enough to make up for the single lost level.

As for Sorcerer, I've been pondering houserulling that they get 0 spells and 1 known spell at the normal level a wizard does, so they don't loose out on PrCs, and have the potential to cast, but in a very limited amount (like a bard) at those odd levels.

 

[Beckett]

Giving up a level or two of spellcasting is rough, but for many PRCs, I think the tradeoff is worth it. Sure, the first level power may not be worth that level of spellcasting, but in the long term, it balances out. In one game I'm in, the warmage went Elemental Savant, and he seems pretty happy with his choice. Having Practiced Spellcaster certainly helps.

In another game I'm playing, I'm looking at losing two spellcasting levels over 20 levels; the first I lost when I took the Force Missile Adept, the second when I take Argent Savant. With Practiced Spellcaster, at 20th level I'll cast as a 20th level caster, have the spells of an 18th level wizard, and my magic missiles will do 7d4+14 (may have left out a bonus there) and I can give them an energy type to take advantage of vulnerabilites. That's just for starters; I think what I gain from the two classes is well worth the loss of two levels of spell progression.