Presenting . . . THE SCOUT. No, it's not an alt.ranger. (Maybe it's his brother.)

LightPhoenix

First Post
Forrester said:
Presenting THE SCOUT.

What class is the goblin that knows how to work the Heavy Ballista, as he guards against incoming adventurers? Not a fighter - this guy has to know how to spot and listen. Not a ranger - these amateur guards hardly will have the training to track, have two-weapon fighting, ambidexterity, and so on.

What class is the elf that patrols the forest, searching for goblin intruders? Not a fighter - again, where's the spot and listen? Not a ranger - two weapon fighting? Doubtful. Tracking? Kind of unbalancing to have a horde of 1st level elves, all with tracking, looking for the PCs.

What class is the woodsman? What class is the bounty-hunter? Huh? Huh??!!


Well, I haven't looked at your class except for a brief glance, but to answer your questions: Expert. Gets any ten skills as class skills, and six skill points. They gain BAB as a Rogue, simple weapon proficiencies, and light armor. Seems to fit all of the examples, save for a bounty hunter, which IMO would be a Ranger.

LightPhoenix
 

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drowdude

First Post
Forrester said:
Drowdude -- re the Deadlands thing, that *is* scary.

Especially because I was considering putting in bonus Skill Focus feats in place of some of the abilities. Spoooooky.

What is Deadlands, anyway? I take it it's a new d20 system? Is it the Old West, or something else?

Yup, *Weird* West actually :p
 

Dr. Zoom

First Post
The CCE is the Class Construction Engine. It is found here.

Even if SW is "stinky" you can still pilfer their best ideas. :D

If you want a scout type class, I suggest that you pick either rogue or ranger and change the class features a bit like the examples given in the DMG. In any event, post your changes and we can look at it.

As an example, let's take the ranger. We will can the spells and two weapon fighting. Give the player the option of dropping two or three class skills for other skills, or pick the list yourself. Either keep d10 and good Fort saves, or go d8 and good Fort/Reflex saves. Keep fighter BAB, simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor and shields. Keep track as a bonus feat at first level. Keep favored enemy but only allow the Defensive version from MotW. This boosts his Listen and Spot, Hide and Move Silently, and Wilderness Lore against these foes, as well as his AC in combat situations.

In place of the spells, give some special abilities or feats at the levels where he would get a new spell level (4, 8, 11, 14). Even if you give him feats, it is only 4. That should not infringe on the fighter too much.
 

Forrester

First Post
The proposed changes to the Ranger make some sense, but IMO once you strip the divine casting away from the Ranger and get rid of two of the first three feats, you're moving away from mild modifications and getting into completely new class territory.

So I'm just going whole-hog and doing something similar to what you suggest, except knocking the BAB down, giving them a slight sneak-attack bonus, and Heightened Alertness.

I fail to see why it's okay to come up with ten different versions of the Ranger, but once you say you've come up with a new core class, the scrutiny applied to you rises tenfold :).
 


Dr. Zoom

First Post
Forrester, you are not getting a tenfold scrutiny here, at least from me. I am simply sharing with you my opinion and thoughts about your Scout class. If you wish to use it in your game, I have no problem with that. I simply disagree with giving another core class the sneak attack ability (leave it to the rogues and prestige classes).

In my opinion, a scout would not have sneak attack as a core ability. Alertness, however, is a good feat for a scout. Skill Mastery is a good ability for a scout. Defensive combat abilities are good for a scout. This is where your focus should be for a scout class. That is why I and others have suggested the SW scout, which focuses primarily on these things.

Now I want to go back and respond to some of your original questions:

What class is the goblin that knows how to work the Heavy Ballista, as he guards against incoming adventurers? Not a fighter - this guy has to know how to spot and listen. Not a ranger - these amateur guards hardly will have the training to track, have two-weapon fighting, ambidexterity, and so on. I suppose he could be a rogue, but I can't see him tumbling all over the place, or learning how to use magical devices, or even necessarily picking locks. And if he’s got 8 skill points/level, he probably will be dumping points into some of those. And Evasion? Uncanny dodge? I don't see slightly experienced guards of this nature learning those abilities.

The answer, simply enough, is warrior. Most goblins would be warriors. A few would fill the role of expert or adept or even the occasional fighter or ranger or barbarian or cleric, etc. If you want your scout class to help here, it should be an NPC class, as discussed before.


What class is the elf that patrols the forest, searching for goblin intruders? Not a fighter - again, where's the spot and listen? Not a ranger - two weapon fighting? Doubtful. Tracking? Kind of unbalancing to have a horde of 1st level elves, all with tracking, looking for the PCs. (Assuming you're running a campaign where elves are the bad guys, of course.) And while some alt.rangers allow replacement of the two-weapon fighting virtual feats with two archery feats, this top-loads the class even MORE. It's arguable that two-weapon fighting is subpar - but starting with point-blank shot and rapid shot (or precise shot, or whatever) is *never* a bad thing!

The answer again is warrior. This is what the elf entry in the MM reflects. Of course, there will be more elves in the typical campaign that have actual PC classes such as fighter and ranger and wizard, etc. Perhaps a good scout class could be of some value amongst the elves, or even an elven prestige class of some sort.


What class is the woodsman? What class is the bounty-hunter? Huh? Huh??!!

Easy answer: They're fighter/rogues.

More likely that they are experts (woodsman) or fighter types who have taken up a certain profession (bounty hunter). SW has a viable bounty hunter prestige class, and MotW has a few prestige classes along this line, like the Bloodhound.

In any event, why don't you post your revised Scout and we can take another look at it. :)
 
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Forrester

First Post
The elven scouts in my campaign are well-trained novices. If they were warriors, they'd have a big 8 skill points to spend, and most abilities that it makes sense for them to have (Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, maybe a little Wilderness Lore) are cross-class.

The goblin guards -- well, if they're warriors, then again they have lousy spot/listen, and they can't both have Alertness and the Exotic Weapon Proficiency necessary to use the damn Ballista at the end of the corridor :). (I'm assuming one would be necessary, but maybe not.)

In general, in my campaign, I rarely use any NPC class except Commoner and Expert (and Expert just doesn't have the right feel, sorry, though maybe it would work for the Woodsman). I think the Warrior class is silly, as well as the Adept.

Others probably use the NPC classes more, so that the PCs are even more "a cut above" everyone else -- I just don't feel like doing that. Seems phony to me. PCs get enough breaks already.
 

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