D&D 5E Prestige Classes and similar things

[I'm A Banana]

5e can have the prestige classes that 3e intended to have.

First, lets talk about what PrC's were kind of supposed to be in their original concept: classes that you entered in at higher level, that represented secret knowledge, advanced skills, or some other quality that could only be learned by certain people. They were intended to give flavor and dimension to a campaign setting by fleshing out groups of powerful people that adventurers could join or fight against, and to represent "Advanced" arts or specialized mechanics that adventurers could learn.

There is *totally* still space for that.

Some 3e PrC's more correctly represent something you do or want to do from an early level. Most of their "mutliclass capstone" classes fell into this role, but even things like, say, Arcane Archer could conceivably things you do at the start of your career. These things are probably good fits for subclasses.

Some 3e PrC's also focused on fairly limited mechanical schticks rather than any sort of archetype or identity. Arcane Archer is another good icon for that, but so is, for instance, almost any 3-level PrC, or most 4e Paragon Paths. These things are probably better fits for 5e feats, big as they are.

But there is also a pile of things out there that would still make good PrC's in 5e, as they do fit the mold of advanced knowledge or specialized abilities or specific elite organizations.

The thing to realize about what might make a good actual PrC in 5e is the word prestige. If it's not a symbol of elite lore or knowledge, it's probably not something that needs stringent, higher-level requirements to qualify for, so it's probably better off being a feat or a subclass.

And given that 5e is presumably grabbing 3e's fast-n-loose multiclassing, it'd be very easy to institute them, even if WotC does not.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Because there is no way WotC will settle with selling less books and reduce their sales.

Other than the period of time known as 2011-June 2014.

 

[1of3]

5e can have the prestige classes that 3e intended to have.

First, lets talk about what PrC's were kind of supposed to be in their original concept: classes that you entered in at higher level, that represented secret knowledge, advanced skills, or some other quality that could only be learned by certain people. They were intended to give flavor and dimension to a campaign setting by fleshing out groups of powerful people that adventurers could join or fight against, and to represent "Advanced" arts or specialized mechanics that adventurers could learn.

There is *totally* still space for that.

I agree with you on the last part. What remains to be shown is whether a prestige CLASS is the optimal way to achieve it.

As I noted before, progress in class does not conform to the flow of the narrative. Unless you level up, whenever a story is over. So with the standard way of earning XP, class levels or anything tied to them is not a good way to model anyhting that is dependent on fictional events.

A better model can be found in treasure. Treasure does not happen as XP do, but is "earned" through play, much like the prestige you're going for.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I agree with you on the last part. What remains to be shown is whether a prestige CLASS is the optimal way to achieve it.

As I noted before, progress in class does not conform to the flow of the narrative. Unless you level up, whenever a story is over. So with the standard way of earning XP, class levels or anything tied to them is not a good way to model anyhting that is dependent on fictional events.

A better model can be found in treasure. Treasure does not happen as XP do, but is "earned" through play, much like the prestige you're going for.

Classes can weave into the narrative pretty easily, though. "Come back and see me when you're ready for training," or even the meta-level, "You can now take levels in X." You can even grab some incremental advancement, "Okay, you gain ability Q right now, the rest of your level comes when you get the usual XP."

Items have a problem of not being as potent, peremanent, and character-defining a trait as a class can be. You can loose items, throw them away, get them eaten by a rust monster. Items are accessories, additions, things your class lets you use.

It's still a form of reward, but it's a reward that goes deeper than a dooddad you wiggle around, which means it's more deliberate and exciting for a character to grab that level -- they made an active choice to be THIS kind of hero.

 

[1of3]

Items have a problem of not being as potent, peremanent, and character-defining a trait as a class can be. You can loose items, throw them away, get them eaten by a rust monster. Items are accessories, additions, things your class lets you use.

I'm not actually suggesting using items, but something like Boons in 4e. That would be skills or abilities that are gained like treasure. Boons were introduced in 4e as a means of reward in campaigns with little magic items.

 

[Dausuul]

There are three big reasons why prestige classes never lived up to their original conception of ties to the world:

• Most PrCs were generic. The Assassin prestige class was not tied to a particular assassins' guild. It had no built-in story elements. The DM had to add that and make sure to remind the players of it.
• PrCs had stringent requirements that required advance planning. This was the biggest mistake IMO. If you have to build your character from 1st level to meet the Assassin requirements, then you can't just become an assassin as part of the story.
• Because PrCs came at the cost of your existing class levels, and offered a substantial power boost, you were effectively penalized for not grabbing one as soon as you could. I'm actually okay with prestige classes granting a noticeable increase in power, but you shouldn't suffer for coming to it late.

My suggestion would be to avoid presenting a list of generic out-of-the-box PrCs, and instead provide a toolkit for DMs to build their own, plus a few examples with strong story elements. Instead of an Assassin PrC, have a Yellow Rose Assassin PrC, with lots of details about the customs and induction rituals of the House of Yellow Roses. DMs could use the Yellow Rose Assassin class as written, or use it as inspiration and build custom assassin PrCs for their own worlds.

Furthermore, to avoid the third problem above, when you join the PrC, you should be able to replace your existing class levels either gradually or immediately. Or just make the PrC into an "add-on" package which augments your existing class instead of replacing it.

 

[1of3]

Furthermore, to avoid the third problem above, when you join the PrC, you should be able to replace your existing class levels either gradually or immediately. Or just make the PrC into an "add-on" package which augments your existing class instead of replacing it.

Overall good points. Replacement could be an option

 

[Li Shenron]

Most PrCs were generic. The Assassin prestige class was not tied to a particular assassins' guild. It had no built-in story elements. The DM had to add that and make sure to remind the players of it.

That's a problem with splatbooks like the Complete series. If they made too many of them too specific, gamers would have complained that they weren't usable enough. PrCl in campaign settings books were better with this regard.

PrCs had stringent requirements that required advance planning. This was the biggest mistake IMO. If you have to build your character from 1st level to meet the Assassin requirements, then you can't just become an assassin as part of the story.

This is a good point. On one hand those requirements were supposed to be repaid by the reward of qualifying, but this was too much "system mastery" and a significant portion of the players base don't plan ahead in my experience. "System mastery" felt like a good idea, until a lot of gaming people moved into that stage of life where you just can't afford the time to master a game.

Because PrCs came at the cost of your existing class levels, and offered a substantial power boost, you were effectively penalized for not grabbing one as soon as you could. I'm actually okay with prestige classes granting a noticeable increase in power, but you shouldn't suffer for coming to it late.

This is more debatable. There was a lot of variety in PrCl, many of which did not boost enough or actually penalized you for entering one (especially spellcasters).

 

[Wulfgar76]

Prestige classes? Do we really need them?

You can already customize your character across race, class, subclass, multi-class, background and feats.
6 variables already.

I'd say put prestige classes into feats with specific prerequisites.