Preview: Brutal Ability

[DracoSuave]

No it doesn't.

The odds of getting any particular number between 3 and 12 are the same in all three of the following cases.

1) Roll d12, reroll any value less than or equal to 2.

2) Roll d10, add 2.

3) Modify a d10 so that the 1 is renumbered 11 and the 2 is renumbered 12.

In all three cases, you have exactly the same odds (1 in 10) of the final value being any specific value (including max).

The only differences are pschological.

Carl

You're absolutely correct. Granted, some people -enjoy- rerolling 1s and 2s.

The reasons that d12 brutal 2 is used instead of d10+2 have to do more with rules elegance and less confusion. Once you start going vorpal and gauntlets of destruction and 4[W] country, the d12 is just a bit more grokkable and requires less 'did I remember to add the 2 there? Oh it's 4 now? What do you mean I don't reroll that 1?' situations. If you can remember it all, good on ya, and a special d10 with the tens digit added onto two of the rolls is a good way of solving these inelegancies with d10+2....

....but that doesn't change the fact that this might not be the only brutal weapon and therefore such quick solutions may not work out for all of them.

 

[Bison]

No it doesn't.

The odds of getting any particular number between 3 and 12 are the same in all three of the following cases.

1) Roll d12, reroll any value less than or equal to 2.

2) Roll d10, add 2.

3) Modify a d10 so that the 1 is renumbered 11 and the 2 is renumbered 12.

In all three cases, you have exactly the same odds (1 in 10) of the final value being any specific value (including max).

The only differences are pschological.





The real question is: What is the RAI (as opposed to the RAW) for weapons with more than one die contributing to [W]. The RAW says: "reroll any die", and I think this clearly states reroll 1s and 2s on both dice of a weapon that does 2d4. But this can have a much greater effect in such a case (the weapon now does an average of 7, as opposed to an average of 5, gaining 2 points on average rather than only one).

I suspect the RAW should have been worded so that you either only reroll one of the dice if both are lower than the threshold OR (more likely, and easier) you reroll both dice if the total value is lower than the threshold. This seems like a clear case where errata is needed.

Carl

yes, sorry, I misred the post, i thought he renumbered a d12, I should have read closer

 

[1of3]

I'd suggest assuming the d12 was 7 instead re-rolling it, when 1 or 2 come up. (Expecation = 7.41)

That's a bit faster.

 

[jaelis]

(Hoping you are kidding)


No, because that would have an entirely different distribution.

Yes, the distribution is different. But you roll an awful lot of [W]s in a 4e fight... I doubt that much besides the average matters.

 

[Syrsuro]

Yes, the distribution is different. But you roll an awful lot of [W]s in a 4e fight... I doubt that much besides the average matters.

In that case, why bother rolling at all?

Carl

 

[jaelis]

Rolling is traditional, and most people think it is more fun.

But I personally would rather roll 3d4 than to either roll 1d12 and reroll 1s and 2s, or to roll 1d10+2 and keep track of how the bonuses add up.

Edit: actually, I might have to take that back. For a 7[W] attack, rolling 21d4 might not be so much fun.

 

[DracoSuave]

Rolling is traditional, and most people think it is more fun.

But I personally would rather roll 3d4 than to either roll 1d12 and reroll 1s and 2s, or to roll 1d10+2 and keep track of how the bonuses add up.

Edit: actually, I might have to take that back. For a 7[W] attack, rolling 21d4 might not be so much fun.

3d4 doesn't give the same probability spread as a single die-roll. Instead of having a flat curve where you have highs and lows, you have a bell curve where you're going to roll the same 3 damage numbers a full half of the time.

It doesn't really work well with other magic weapon types, and it causes a lot more confusion.

1d12 reroll 1s and 2s is easily groked.

 

[Stalker0]

d10+2 and d12 brutal 2 are the same....except when multiple W is taken into account.

2[d12] brutal 2 is better than 2[d10] +2. And since WOTC has no intention of suddenly having +2's multiplied in the W, the brutal weapon is superior.

 

[Lancelot]

In general, I don't like rerolls (as it slows down the game). But I'll make an exception in this case. Brutal weapons just sound like fun. Even though, as DM, I like the players' turns to go by quickly... I can imagine the look of glee on their faces as that '1' suddenly becomes a '12'.

Also, I like the simplicity of keeping the damage dice the same. Same probability as d10+2, true, but it makes things much simpler in terms of rules interactions (e.g. multiple [W] powers, other effects that also allow rerolls, etc).

 

[Mengu]

d10+2 and d12 brutal 2 are the same....except when multiple W is taken into account.

2[d12] brutal 2 is better than 2[d10] +2. And since WOTC has no intention of suddenly having +2's multiplied in the W, the brutal weapon is superior.

If [W]=1d10+2, then 2[W]=2d10+4.

And if there was ever a weapon that did fixed 3 damage, then 2[W] would be 6 damage.

Can you point to any core rule that falsifies this?