Problem DM - How Should a Player Handle It?

[pawsplay]

I'm not sure I agree.

When someone whines, while they may not be helping to solve the problem, at least they are being direct and honest about. Sarcasm has the edge of passive-aggressiveness. Sarcasm says, "I won't actually tell you what I think is wrong, but I will lay something out there and expect you to pick up the hint interpret it in the way I mean it, and then deal with it." This is not, to my mind, better.

I don't think you have the same understanding of sarcasm that I do. There is nothing so bell clear as really pointed sarcasm. And it certainly invites discussion.

Whining, on the other hand, usually is an attempt to disguise anger, insecurity, etc and is rarely productive. Whining is almost always about hurt, while the form of the complaint almost always proposes to be about justice.

 

[Chimera]

Seems to me you missed an option: Discussing. Whining and complaining are typified by a tone that is not cooperative. This contrasts with discussion, with is less about how much you don't like a thing, and more about finding solutions.

I guess that's the problem I have with the terms Whining and Complaining in this thread. They're non-cooperative on both sides.

I've tried to speak to several GMs over the years only to have them slam and dismiss me as whining and/complaining rather than to listen to what I am saying and deal with it productively. It's a defensive non-cooperative attitude to simply dismiss others as whining and/or complaining. It allows one to engage the ego and rationalize away actually listening to what the other person is saying. Unfortunately, far too often it is done not on the basis of what it being said, but by dismissing the content and focusing on percieved wrongs with the WAY it is being said.

For example, a couple of years ago I got into a large game (7 players) where in the first two sessions, a lot of side-encounters happened involving the two scouts (or rather, the Rogue and the Scout) and with night encounters where my Wizard was useless because I'd expended my meager complement of spells. Thus after two sessions, those two PCs had at least 50% more experience than most of the rest of the party. Clearly, from a personal and player perspective, this was going to be a severe problem if this pattern continued!

I attempted to speak to the GM about it. Now what I didn't know was that he had a mechanism in place to deal with extreme XP differences in the party. But even so, it was still going to be an issue for the whole group, as another player pointed out in asking if I, the party Wizard would get 100% of the XPs for killing a group of monters at long range the moment I hit 5th level and got Fireball.

Unfortunately, the GM was very defensive and decided that I was nothing but a whiner. He ended up changing things around because other people brought up their concerns, but it set the tone in his mind that I was a problem player and we ultimately had more problems with each other down the line.

I was also very unhappy that his "solution" was to create a lot more opportunities for my Wizard to gain XP so that at the end of 5 sessions, I was the XP leader. In other words, instead of listening to real concerns and making minor adjustments, he decided that the best solution would be to 'buy off the troublemaker', which was not only unnecessary, but undesirable on my end because it showed bad faith.

 

[Umbran]

Sorry, when I mentioned 'the same problems keep happening in spite of talking to the DM' I was assuming a failed discussion, but was not at all clear in that regard. Discussion is always the best choice, though sometimes it falls through.

I was taking it as sort of the difference between "talking to the DM" and "talking with the DM", if you know what I mean.

I can talk to the DM, and make some statements about things that I feel are problems, but yet come out of it without having confirmation that the DM accepts that the thing needs to be changed (or without my understanding why the DM feels they should stay the same), and without any idea of what steps are going to be taken going forward. In a proper discussion there is two-way communication. I should come out with that information, and it will become painfully obvious if the DM fails to hold up their end of things.

You are correct, discussion can fail. However, as you might gather from my previous response - if discussion fails, I probably don't want to be in the game anymore. I am not interested in having to resort to various forms of badgering. If the other side isn't willing to really listen to me, understand what I'm talking about, and at least let me know why they don't agree, then I don't see why I should be playing.

 

[Umbran]

I don't think you have the same understanding of sarcasm that I do. There is nothing so bell clear as really pointed sarcasm. And it certainly invites discussion.

Okay, I'd have to agree that you don't have the same understanding of it as I do. We normally view sarcasm from the point of view of the audience watching a stand-up comic. The audience is not really the target - even when the sarcasm is about people, each audience member can plausibly say, "He isn't really talking about me," so we are free to laugh. But when the sarcasm is actually pointed at an individual, personally, especially in front of a group of peers or friends, the effect is not generally to make that person laugh.

The effect of sarcasm is twofold - one is to make the target feel bad, and the other is to get your complaint across. The problem is that the former effect is the stronger, such that it does to invite discussion - it invites argument. Trying to open a dialog with sarcasm is basically starting with, "You are too stupid to see this, but...," making your target upset with you as a person before they ever get to think about the thing you see as a problem. Anger, resentment, and embarrassment do not make the root issues more clear.

Look around EN World, and see how often sarcasm actually gets anyone who originally disagrees with a position to accept that the position is correct - it almost never does. Sarcasm starts more arguments and nastiness than it does resolves disagreements, and does not win friends and influence people.

You are correct that whining is uncooperative. That does not make sarcasm in any way superior. I probably do not want to game with anyone who feels the best way to actually get through a problem is to embarrass someone first.

 

[Darklone]

I don't think you have the same understanding of sarcasm that I do. There is nothing so bell clear as really pointed sarcasm. And it certainly invites discussion.

Agreeing with Umbran. Not to be offensive in any way... pawsplay, not every grownup understands sarcasm and many not so intellectually able adults don't feel like discussing with sarcastic people or have the eloquence to do so. If you use sarcasm in a discussion with them, it just tells them you think they are more stupid than you are or that you are the insecure one who wants to show off... not very productive.

Still they may be great friends and players.

Whining, on the other hand, usually is an attempt to disguise anger, insecurity, etc and is rarely productive. Whining is almost always about hurt, while the form of the complaint almost always proposes to be about justice.

Agreed.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Whining is counter productive, complaining may prove useless, or the same problems keep happening in spite of talking to the DM in question - so what should they do, except vote with their feet?

There are a few options, the viability of most depend on specifics I would not be privy to at this time. Most of these suggestions require the co-operation of the other players.

Mature options:

1) Ultimatum: You spoke with the DM. Speak one more time, telling him it gets fixed or you take a walk mid game. Iy its not fixed, literally get up mid game, put on your coat, gather your things and take a walk. Do not announce it, just do it. If someone asks why your on your way out, say exactly why, and mention you are open to returning next game if thing dummy up.

2) Offer to DM: Tell the DM you have an idea for a short game you want to run. Then run it, and do what you can to keep it going. If your a better DM, the other players ought to agree to keep your game going rather than return to the bad game.

Borderline:

Fire May Sue: This requires the participation / agreement of the other players. Find some in game pretext to break away from the Mary Sue. Announce that your character does not like her, and that she is fired. Promise to kill her if she shows up again. Follow through.

Be Inconvenient: There are some rules that players and DM's steer away from because they are Nuclear. No one wants to have them used against them. So break out every one of those tricks. Grapple everything. Bust out the Spiked chain Frenzied Berzerker build you heard someone complain about. Magic item distribution unfair? Start using Sunder all the time. If its a high level game, open every fight with Mordenkainens Disjunction. Take a Sorcerer / Wizard build and use the Greater Invis + Fly + blasting spells. Use Evards Black Tentacles every chance you get. Every DM has certain preferences for combat, and if you know what your doing you can make every fight not fun for him. If there are magic item shops, steal from them. Scry everything. Use spells less than strategically, such as planting that fireball area of effect just a little too close to Mary Sue. Or dropping an Obscuring Mist spell on something and break Mary Sues line of sight. Or drop a wall of ice that puts Mary Sue alone with the Enemies.

Less mature options:
Cheat: Start cheating flagrantly. Use potions you do not quit have any more, miscalculate attacks. Cast your only 9th level spell more times than you ought to. Use feats you do nt have. Announce an 19 when you roll a 9. Get the other dissatisfied players to do the same, and see how long it takes for your DM to try to counter things. Its hard to be upstaged by Mary Sue when you keep scoring critical hits every 4th attack.

Play at a right Angle to the Game: Also called an Abuse of Free Will. Stop following plot hooks. Surrender to the major villains rather than fight them. Cast Silence an NPC is about to give critical information but just will not shut up. If that won't work, instead cast Deafness on yourself. Cast firetrap on the front door of a semi-important NPC, then knock on the door and run. Stab the princess you just rescued on the off chance she is really a doppleganger, (but be sure to apologize afterwards). Run away from every fight. When the villain threatens to kill you, declare 'Not if I do so first!', than perform a Coup-De-Grace on yourself. If you need to take a ring to Mount Doom, just hop on a ship and drop it in the ocean. Or take it to a pawn shop and hock it. You can make your own entertainment, and thwart any DM that is more interested than telling his stories than running a fair game.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Raven Crowking]

This sort of came up on another thread - but what should a player do when the DM is doing a poor job of it - whether a Mary Sue DMPC, a railroad plot, a PCs are witnesses plot, and/or one or several characters are made useless by the circumstances of a given scenario?

Whining is counter productive, complaining may prove useless, or the same problems keep happening in spite of talking to the DM in question - so what should they do, except vote with their feet?

The Auld Grump, who has been guilty of several of the above, though not recently....

I think that Gary Gygax already gave the best advice in the intro to the 1e PHB.

To wit (and I paraphrase badly): Talk with the DM in question, respectfully and outside of game time. If you still aren't enjoying the game, don't play. Find another game, or, better yet, start one. You might find your perspective shifts when you've sat in the DM's chair for a while.

RC

 

[Dragonbait]

ignore this. I posted on the wrong thread.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

I am mostly a player but here is my take on it. As others have said...

"Talk" to the DM outside of the game. I say 'talk' in quotes because it may not always be easy to talk to the DM face to face so email may work. And in some cases email may be better. It lets you reread what you have said and gives you a good chance to catch yourself if you go into rant mode or phrase something in a way that could be read in a very bad light.

I haven't seen this mentioned yet but something I would heavily advocate is to use examples. Be as specific as you can and have as many examples as you can. Saying "the fights are too hard" doesn't help much because the DM can easily say "you trounced fight X and Y so I upped the CR a bit". However, if you say "fights 1, 2, 3 and 5 almost killed us and Bob's lucky critcal seems to be the only reason we go through 4. I think Monsters X, Y and Z are really what did it though I admit we had really, really bad luck in fight 2" gives the DM much more detail about WHY the complaint is coming their way.

Similarly saying "I think Mary Sue is a DMPC" doesn't help the DM much. Sure, you've voiced the problem but saying "why did Mary get the Diplomacy roll when Joe has max ranks and why did Mary get to use the Supercool Magic Item when Ellen has a high Use Magic Device" gives the DM more info to work with to (hopefuuly) fix the problem.

From the DM side of things ask questions, and as above try to get the players to use examples. Talk to your players and see what they think about the last session but be sure to ask "why" they feel a certain way. Knowing why a player enjoyed a session is much more useful that simply knowing they enjoyed it. Find out why they thought a certain fight was cool or why they didn't like a particular encounter.

Hand out a sheet every so often as home work asking about Favorite/Least Favorite Monster and fight. Be sure to ask 'Why' and be sure to let them know that 'I don't know' is a valid answer; hopefully one of the players will give a reason to any given question. This will also help open the lines of communication so that the players will hopefully talk to the DM.

 

[cougent]

Yes, being willing to listen to complaints, and allow that they might be correct, is not one of the things that comes easily to most of those willing to lurk behind the screen, but it is necessary. In a way my taking over from a bad DM in the way back when might be part of why I started listening to complaints early on. Mind you, it didn't stop me from making every other mistake in the book....

My own nature is both confrontational enough, and stubborn enough, that it does not come easily to me to stop and listen to the complaints, which is a majority of the reasons I implemented the feedback forms - it made it less likely that I would be confrontational about the matters.

The Auld Grump, if it seems like I had three posts in quick succession, well....

We sound dangerously similar... no offense intended!

In RL, I have spent 24 hours resurrecting a dead PC for a family friend who had all his wedding and baby pictures on it and corrupted windows and had no backups simply because he politely asked me to do it. In another case a family member essentially demanded that I "fix his computer" which he had infected with numerous viruses from "surfing the web" and that I do it right away and without loosing anything... that did not evoke the same response.

I will fully admit that I am all about the presentation. A player can state right in the middle of a game "Uh, I think you got that wrong." and I will say "You may be right, do we take a break and look it up now or do we fix it later?" Similarly if the initial report is [Dice flying across the room] "That call was S***!" then there will be no discussion and we will not fix anything, except he may be asked not to return. In between actions get in between responses.

My definition of whining is also more of the high nasal pitch, over exaggeration of syllables ["Oh man" from the cartoon Ben 10 but worse], and repeated insistence upon being correct in some other situation "Told you sooo..." This also crosses / meshes with just plain rudeness. I have an extremely low threshold for rudeness.
[I have never had a player throw dice in frustration, but have had the immediate visceral response... once]