Problem DM - How Should a Player Handle It?

[Phlebas]

DM's wont improve unless they're given feedback - I know I DM a lot different now than from twenty years ago - i'd like to think i'm still improving even now and most of that is due to talking to players (normally socially / outside the game) and switching between playing and ref'ing so you get the benefits of seeing both sides

The one thing that is difficult to change is the style that the DM wants to play. if he's telling a deep immersive story and the players just want to kick in the door and loot the room (or vice-versa) its a clash of styles and will inevitably end in tears.....

Ultimately a simple rule applies. are you having fun? If so then put the effort in to make it better. If your not having fun then bring the matter to a head.

 

[shilsen]

I'd talk to the DM. I don't have to whine or complain to get my point across. It's also why I play with friends who know and respect my opinion just as I do theirs.

What he said. For me, clear and consistent communication is always one of the most important keys to a successful campaign. And that applies with any DMs - good, bad or ugly. If I have a DM with whom communication will not work, chances are that there are a whole lot of problems in the game. Luckily, over the last few years I've had some great DMs (Mallus, Rolzup, Atlatl Jones), and probably not so coincidentally they've all had a lot of open communication between players and DMs.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I see most advice being to have a 'quiet word' OOG. That's not what my current group do when there's a problem. We talk about it the moment it happens. For us it works really well because we can deal with problems as soon as they arise.

For example there was an issue recently with group cohesion. The good end of the party wanted to do things too different from the evil end. We discussed it in the middle of a session, I think I was the one to bring up the problem, and decided to solve the problem by 'compressing the morality spectrum', reigning in both extremes so the evil guy becomes less evil and the good guy less good.

I think the reasons this works for us are we meet once a week, have very long sessions - 12 hrs+ - don't really see one another outside the game and generally don't communicate via email as one of ther four players doesn't have an email address. Also we don't mind breaking immersion.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I'm having a bit of difficulty with the word 'whine' actually. As far as I can see the sense in which it is used is 'a feeble, peevish complaint' . In other words it's a complaint about a minor matter, the problem being that the issue complained about is trivial. And yet some, like the OP, say that there can be a real problem and that whining is the wrong way to go about fixing it.

Is whine being used to mean incessant, lengthy complaining? This isn't what the word means, according to dictionary.com.

 

[C.W.Richeson]

Option 1: Play better. Take the spotlight and run with it, feed the DM interesting ideas, and try to make it a better game. This option may be ideal for groups that play together by necessity, such as close friends.

Option 2: Polite discussion about how the game can be improved. This always sounds great, but the reality is that a lot of roleplayers are very sensitive folk and this doesn't always go over so well. This option is ideal when you're otherwise prepared to quit the group but want to make one last attempt to change things. Be prepared for group politics to emerge if it hasn't already.

Option 3: Find a new game. Let's face it: every game isn't for everyone and often the best thing that can happen is for incompatible folk to seek out others with similar tastes. Be friendly, don't burn bridges, but find a new game to play in.

 

[DonTadow]

This sort of came up on another thread - but what should a player do when the DM is doing a poor job of it - whether a Mary Sue DMPC, a railroad plot, a PCs are witnesses plot, and/or one or several characters are made useless by the circumstances of a given scenario?

Whining is counter productive, complaining may prove useless, or the same problems keep happening in spite of talking to the DM in question - so what should they do, except vote with their feet?

The Auld Grump, who has been guilty of several of the above, though not recently....

I'd take a step back and first anaylsise my own playstyle first. Is the plot a railroad plot, or are the party being pulled on a string? I use to have a group, my last campaign, who for 5 sessions felt like they were being railroaded by the NPC because he told them this is what they needed to do for an item. It was't until one PC said ..wait let me try this... and they walked right into the vault, beat up the lvl 1 kobold ( and got what they wanted). I've also dm'd games that i left too open, and the party seemed frustrated that wasn't a beginning set path (I essentially dropped them into a world and told them to find jobs with about a dozen or two paths open). This works with some but not all. Maybe your DM feels that the party needs some definitive guidelines, then again maybe you guys have not tried to do other things.

I've had groups in the middle of an adventure they started just give up. Right now I got a group who are on a foreign plane, against their will, and they are seriously thinking of giving up the quest to go home and continuing to adventure on this plane.

I don't think giving usingful magic items is bad dm'n. It sucks to get a treasure full of scrolls when you're located near a small town (that won't buy them) and you have no wizard or sorceror who can cast them. Or leaving a great sword of kick but as the main treasure when the party has no heavy mage. Very often in fiction the heroes end up finding just the item they wanted. My first two DM's were like this, asking about specific items we had an eye on in the dmg, and we'd eventually find such an item (so long as it was reasonable.) I use a karma buy system where pcs can buy an iem with a fictional credit called karma, and it will be in a treasure location in their next 3 sessions.

Id talk to him one more time, line item what exactly is the problem and keep it simple. I'd stick with the major two problems. The feeling that you're feeling railroaded (no control over the outcome of the game) and the godline dmpc's he has.

With the railroading convo, make sure he understands that you play the game so you can effect the world and with his plots (give example) you don't feel that.

YOu also hate how his npcs seem to be godlike, and it really drains the fun when the npcs accomplish goals theatre meant for the players.

If this doesn't work you might need to bring this up in game. When a super npc comes around the pcs all attack them. So that he sees how super they are. Or you see a railroad plot coming and you say.. forget that, we're not interested. Better yet, do like we did our first 3.5 game and join the enemies. "that sounds lke a good idea and far emore lucrative to join the cult". If he wont DM the way you want play the way you do. The DM will either adjust or realize how hard he's trying to railroad.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Whining is counter productive, complaining may prove useless, or the same problems keep happening in spite of talking to the DM in question - so what should they do, except vote with their feet?

Whining MIGHT be counter-productive but there is also the old adage that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Complaining MIGHT prove useless but only if the DM can't take criticism or has no interest in YOUR enjoyment of his game, and why on Earth would you decide, "I won't complain because even though it MIGHT make things better, there's the chance that it won't, so I should just shut up?"

Now if the same things keep happening in SPITE of making your voice heard that is an ENTIRELY different matter. It then comes down to two choices. Either you decide that you can live with things as they are because the other compensations are worth it, or you decide that it's not worth the grief and you politely leave.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Perhaps unfortunately I can pretty much only come at this from a DM's perspective, I hardly ever get to be one of the players these days. (But more than just a couple of years ago, I get to play a few times out of every six months! Gods it's nice being on the other side of the screen once in a while. )

Something that I have done for the last few years (about four years now, gah!) is to hand out a DM evaluation form at the end of each scenario - even if the players are not willing to communicate face to face I have often found them willing to write any problems down, if they know that everyone else is doing the same. I give a nominal XP bonus to those who hand in forms, even if the only say 'you're doing a great job' (which is not what I am looking for... but I won't complain).

The forms are among Phil Reed's Campaign Planner sets from Ronin Arts, but it is easy enough to cobble together your own. On it I ask what they liked, what their favorite moment was, what they didn't like, what their least favorite moment was, whether the scenario was balanced, what the DM did right, what the DM did wrong, and things that the player would like to see in future games.

And I actually do read the things. It can be annoying when the same things show up on both the likes and dislikes of different players, but better than not knowing....

The Auld Grump

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I'm having a bit of difficulty with the word 'whine' actually. As far as I can see the sense in which it is used is 'a feeble, peevish complaint' . In other words it's a complaint about a minor matter, the problem being that the issue complained about is trivial. And yet some, like the OP, say that there can be a real problem and that whining is the wrong way to go about fixing it.

Is whine being used to mean incessant, lengthy complaining? This isn't what the word means, according to dictionary.com.

That is the sense that I think the word was being used in the original thread to convey, yes.

My own, personal, definition has more with the tonal qualities - a high pitched nasal whinging. (If you remember some of the older episodes of Saturday Night Live you probably also remember the Whiners....) A conflation of definitions for the term 'whine'.

The Auld Grump

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Following from that other thread
I think in the past I would have done just that, said "I'm outta here" and moved on. I like to think and hope that today as a player I would try to have an OOG frank discussion with the DM before resorting to the feet. As a DM I have fairly solidly resorted to either being approached, or even approaching players who seemed unhappy even if they did not say anything. All of this is though predicated on all parties acting like adults.

Add whining (and worse yet open rudeness) and my attitude changes 180 degrees about. That may not be politically correct these days, but that is just me.

As a player (recently started in a new game after several years from the other side) I try to give the DM the benefit of the doubt. In our second session I "felt" like my Gnome Illusionist* was being "picked on" and he did take more hits and damage than any of the other 4 party members even while away from the fray. [bad rolls to hit them, lucky crits on me] However knowing the DM (a former player of mine) I knew this was not the case, it was just luck of the die. While my PC was at -3 but stable, I took a quick break, grabbed another cold one, streched and walked outside in the nice cool evening air and came back in with no ill will. Our cleric (who was fighting for his life also) managed to get to me and cast CLW for 4 points and I was conscious again... woohoo!

In another instance, as DM I totally blew the call on an issue with a Psionic PC, and he asked me in game about my call (politely, but frustrated). I stuck with it, he grudgingly went along. After the game he came to me, book in hand to point out my mistake. I agreed with him and made the proper adjustments for the next session.

I have no problem with being wrong or mistaken, on some days it seems to be more the norm than the exception. I just expect a certain civility when being informed of my wrongness.



*Yes I said Gnome Illusionist, had to try it just to see why so many hated Gnomes

Yes, being willing to listen to complaints, and allow that they might be correct, is not one of the things that comes easily to most of those willing to lurk behind the screen, but it is necessary. In a way my taking over from a bad DM in the way back when might be part of why I started listening to complaints early on. Mind you, it didn't stop me from making every other mistake in the book....

My own nature is both confrontational enough, and stubborn enough, that it does not come easily to me to stop and listen to the complaints, which is a majority of the reasons I implemented the feedback forms - it made it less likely that I would be confrontational about the matters.

The Auld Grump, if it seems like I had three posts in quick succession, well....