Problems with firearms?

[S'mon]

I have stayed out of this discussion so far.

However, I have to chime in at this point in the discussion.

I do not think many of the changes being advocated would be *any fun*.

Also, many of the changes being advocated here are not representative of the genre.

When Mad Max gets shot he doesnt keel over and die.

When Dirty Harry gets shot he doesnt keel over and die.

This is a weird argument. When these movie heroes get shot, they tend to keel over and be hospitalised, at least for a day or two. At any rate, getting shot in the movies is always a big deal, if you're not The Terminator. I've never seen movie heroes shrug off actual bullet hits. What they're good at is not getting hit. In good (or at least wel-choreagraphed) movies, it's because they use smart tactics. My favourite example of this is the Arnie movie where he wipes out the Chicago mafia in a huge fight scene at the end. It seemed implausible, so I rewatched it looking for "he should have died" moments. I was impressed to discover that as far as I could tell, it all 'worked' - the way the battle went was theoretically possible IRL.

In bad movies, the hero is surrounded by a deflector shield so that bullets vanish or change trajectory as they approach him. My favourite example of this is Desperado with Antonio Banderas, which is an execrable movie full of should-have-died moments. The Arnie movie Commando also suffers from this.

 

[S'mon]

If the PC is close enough that autofire is a realistic option, and they are facing an experienced enemy, that sounds reasonable. I mean, PCs aren't supposed to be charging at belt-fed weapons...

Well, maybe they zig-zag towards the MG, Dodging for their lives - games like WEG Star Wars that use opposed Dodge rolls simulate this better than d20 IMO. A good example is in Saving Private Ryan, where the squad overrun an MG42 like this and only lose one man - one PC, in RPG terms. IRL even belt-fed weapons can't fire continuously for more than a few seconds, unless they have heavy water-cooling. In d20 it should be possible to make a full-round Dodge and greatly lessen the chance of being hit, although enough continous fire weapons tracking in on the target will eventually hit him eventually - the d6-hit system simulates tracking nicely, I find, although it lacks an inherent Dodge mechanic - maybe a full round Dodge action giving a Ref save to remove half the dice would work.

 

[S'mon]

I see. You are trying to compensate for d20's inability to deal with penetration in any shape or form by upping the damage.


Well, I agree with your statements in principle, i.e. most people shot with smaller caliber weapons do not immediately 'die' on the spot, I still disagree with your damage ratings vs. melee weapons for it. If it works for you, that's great, but I think you should apply the same scale to many of your melee weapons (which is more my point). Data like you are collecting can be collected for 'short swords' and a variety of historical weapons, albeit with more difficulty. Basically, I'm not so much disagreeing with you on the actual damage as much as how it is scaled against most melee weapons. Plus the fact that other than reducing someone to below 0, most d20 games have little in the way for accounting for bleeding wounds, shock, or mental reactions to being hit with gunfire; often later bleeding, infection, improper care, or just shock on the scene will cause a gunshot victim's death moreso than the direct effects of the actual-on-the-spot gunshot. These arent modelled in d20 very well, and probably shouldnt be unless you really want that level of complexity.


Yes, this is true to a great extent, but I would take a look into more real-life resources on this subject like ballistic gelatin tests, etc for establishing variance between energy transfer, penetration, wound channel distribution, and the various other factors that can be measured instead of just relying on a gaming source (that is, if you havent already). Still, for gaming purposes, the aforementioned methods are sufficient for most folks, and while I may disagree somewhat it still sounds like you've done some actual homework, so I'll agree to disagree with you


Sorry there , I was just joking as I mistakenly assumed you had scaled most of your handguns to the d20 Modern model, which you probably have not considering your stats for the .44.

1. Penetration - I use a DR type system derived from T2000 and Traveller TNE, armour reduces damage. Weapons have a Penetration stat. "1" means the bullet damage is reduced 1 pt per point of target DR, "2" means it's reduced 2 pts per point of DR, "1/2" means it's reduced 1 point per 2 points of DR. For convenience, the baseline "1" is used for high velocity FMJ rounds, "2" covers low-velocity rounds like most pistols and the AK-47, "1/2" is for specialised AP rounds - which also do less damage BTW, due to reduced tumble effects. A softnosed hollow point bullet is more effective vs a unamoured human than a teflon-coated FMJ round.

2. d6 damage per 9mm bullet has worked well for me in the past. After talking with Upper Krust I'm considering adding an arbitrary +1d6 damage to all small-arms fire. If I were using a Wound Points type system (as in eg d20 Star Wars, Traveller20), where everyone gets at least their CON score as hp, this would become necessary I think. If I did this I would need to up 'mook' hit points a bit, eg always use max-hp at first level for NPCs. I basically want to model the likelihood of a put-down (victim falls over and is incapacitated) with reasonable plausibility, but the most important thing is that the system be scalable, since I like to run crossover games. I dislike 'cult of the gun', which much US genre stuff suffers from, as much as I dislike "guns are useless" stuff, like much British sf (eg Doctor Who).

3. Research - I have looked at primary sources as well as generic weapons encyclopediae and a lot of RPG products. It's pretty obvious when an RPG designer has no idea what they're talking about - eg R Talsorian's Cyberpunk, where a 20mm rifle did less damage (4d10) than a 7.56N (6d6)! :\
GDW impressed me as having done their research properly, in the sense that they based their data on reality rather than making it up out of thin air, and they provided reasonable justifications for it. Where they made mistakes - eg overpowering Flechette rounds in TNE, or not distinguishing between damage done by 9mm and by .45 ACP in T:2000 -the background data they provided makes these readily discernable.

4. I don't own d20 Modern although I've looked at the online SRD. I do own a lot of other recent modern-era & futuristic d20 games. The system I've used predates 3rd edition D&D, and was based on 1e/2e AD&D adapted for Modern, Near Future & SF settings. While I think d20 Modern is interesting, especially the stat-based classes, it doesn't seem to do what I want a Modern game to do; particularly in regards to combat.

 

[S'mon]

I just don't see the need or the fun for some of the changes being proposed. I know I wouldn't want *my* 15th level character killed by some 0 level commoner guerilla who gets his hands on a beat up AK-47.

I think the important thing is that it _could_ happen, not that it's _likely_ to happen. If it _can't_ happen, the PCs will act differently than if they know there's a small but real risk of death. Of course modern Hollywood action heroes have tended increasingly towards the style you advocate - compare a recent Bond movie to one from the '60s and you'll see a huge change. I don't like that style much and it's not the genre I normally seek to emulate in a d20 game, I'm more into Sven Hassel, Saving Private Ryan and older action-adventure stuff (leaving aside the ending of Where Eagles Dare, which I blame for starting this whole trend...)

 

[Vigilance]

I am 100% certain that I do not advocate any style of play or say one way is better than another. I went out of my way to say that if you and your players are having fun then everything else is gravy.

However, in the rules as written there is plenty of danger.

If you have a +7 Fortitude save and a 12 Con, then everytime you take 12 or more pts of damage you have a 35% chance to go to -1.

This means even after being revived you must go through the rest of the adventure at less than 10 HP, which means you are one critical away from death.

That isnt danger?

Chuck

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

1. Penetration - I use a DR type system derived from T2000 and Traveller TNE, armour reduces damage. Weapons have a Penetration stat. "1" means the bullet damage is reduced 1 pt per point of target DR, "2" means it's reduced 2 pts per point of DR, "1/2" means it's reduced 1 point per 2 points of DR. For convenience, the baseline "1" is used for high velocity FMJ rounds, "2" covers low-velocity rounds like most pistols and the AK-47, "1/2" is for specialised AP rounds - which also do less damage BTW, due to reduced tumble effects. A softnosed hollow point bullet is more effective vs a unamoured human than a teflon-coated FMJ round.

Interesting, and good idea, I think, at least in general. If I ever create my own system, I might steal the base idea.

3. Research - I have looked at primary sources as well as generic weapons encyclopediae and a lot of RPG products. It's pretty obvious when an RPG designer has no idea what they're talking about - eg R Talsorian's Cyberpunk, where a 20mm rifle did less damage (4d10) than a 7.56N (6d6)! :\

Well, this is a bad example: 4d10 varies between 4 to 40 points of damage, average 22. 6d6 varies between 6 to 36, average 21. So, the 7.56N deals a bit less maximum and average damage. (Statistically, the 7.56N with its 6d6 will create average results more often than the 4d10 20mm rifle, making it a bit more reliable...)

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[S'mon]

Interesting, and good idea, I think, at least in general. If I ever create my own system, I might steal the base idea.


Well, this is a bad example: 4d10 varies between 4 to 40 points of damage, average 22. 6d6 varies between 6 to 36, average 21. So, the 7.56N deals a bit less maximum and average damage. (Statistically, the 7.56N with its 6d6 will create average results more often than the 4d10 20mm rifle, making it a bit more reliable...)

Mustrum Ridcully

You're right, it was a bad example - the 7.62N rifles in Cyberpunk actually do 6d6+2 dmg (just dug it up) not 6d6, so avg is 23, more than the Barratt 20mm's 4d10 avg 22. I remembered the discrepancy but left out the +2. They tried to rectify this later by creating a different 20mm rifle with a longer barrel that did 8d10 (rolls eyes smiley) and by saying that armour was halved vs d10s...

 

[S'mon]

On a related note: As you can tell, I already have a workable d20 combat system that seems to me preferable to that in WotC's d20 modern.

However I'd like to run some modern-setting d20 soon, probably a realistic modern-warfare type game, and I'm not sure what character generation rules to use. Possibilities include:

d20 Modern - "Fast Heroes" etc - Possiblty too cinematic & well, Buffyesque?

Travellerd20 - "Army" "Marines" etc careers - gritty, maybe not sufficiently designed for modern-day? Uses a Stamina & Wound Points system that would mess with m y firearm damages.

Call of Cthulu d20 - hmm. PCs are very generic and rather weak.

Do my own - would need to create new 'modern' character classs. Hmm.

Any thoughts? Good alternatives?

 

[swrushing]

Well, we're kinda hoping that your group would try it, with second-hand PCs (no sense putting their most prized PCs on the line) on a sidetrek adventure.

you may have misunderstood... my group is using the rule... have been for some time.

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

Again, you subscribed to the philosophy that autofire is to create more damage.

Again? more like "from the get go!" The whole point of my autofire rule is to reflect and implement the close range autofire hosedown creating more damage to a single target by dint of both a greater likelihood of getting ANY hits and the likelihood of getting multiple hits.

In most of the action/adventure films i have seen, when the hero hoses down a single target at close range with an SMG or assault rifle, the result is a bad guy flopping as multiple bullets rip into him followed by the thud fall to the ground.

Thats what i wanted to reflect with this mechanic.

other uses for high rof including things like hosing down an area (gaining chances to hit more than one target), suppressive fire, cover fire and the like are obviously different mechanics.

And just remember, your PC can also be the "enemy" your opponent can drop quickly.

I thought that was obvious!?! Thats how it helps my players making reasonable decisions, within genre, as opposed to just relying on hit points.