Problems with firearms?

[Spatula]

If you have a +7 Fortitude save and a 12 Con, then everytime you take 12 or more pts of damage you have a 35% chance to go to -1.

That's actually wrong, a lethal attack has to exceed the Massive Damage Threshold in order to trigger the saving throw. A character with a 12 Con needs to take 13 damage before saving for massive damage. And then the character has a 35% + 5-30% chance of making the save (due to action points).

Earlier you brought up Mad Max. I don't think Mad Max would have had a 12 Con, more like 16, which would make him basically immune to an AK-47 in the hands of a commoner. Even if said commoner rolled a 20, a threat, he wouldn't be able to confirm the crit in all likelihood (natural 20 on a confirm roll is not an automatic hit, and Max would have a fairly high Defense).

I've been playing non-FX Modern for a while now, and I don't think gun combat is lethal once you hit 4th-5th level (EDIT: and not really particularly lethal past 1st level). The possibility of getting knocked out is always there, but it's not very likely and you have the rest of the group to keep you from dying. Crits are extremely rare, even with a two-gun wielding Gunslinger in the group.

 

[Ranger REG]

you may have misunderstood... my group is using the rule... have been for some time.

But earlier you said, you didn't have/run an encounter with heavy MG with 200-300 rounds of linked (or belt) ammo. Did you?

 

[Ranger REG]

Again? more like "from the get go!" The whole point of my autofire rule is to reflect and implement the close range autofire hosedown creating more damage to a single target by dint of both a greater likelihood of getting ANY hits and the likelihood of getting multiple hits.

Which is pretty much what the heavy MG reflects, but if you're asking me that any automatic weapon, incluidng SMGs, should cause greater damage when using autofire attack (not counting burst fire on a singular target) to those in the 10-by-10 area without further training (like Point Blank Shot, if the GM allows), the I disagree.

In most of the action/adventure films i have seen, when the hero hoses down a single target at close range with an SMG or assault rifle, the result is a bad guy flopping as multiple bullets rip into him followed by the thud fall to the ground.

No doubt they're ordinaries.

I thought that was obvious!?! Thats how it helps my players making reasonable decisions, within genre, as opposed to just relying on hit points.

Oh, well. Your Campaign, Your Rules. I don't know if it may work for mine. Thanks for sharing though.

 

[Aaron2]

I thought that was obvious!?! Thats how it helps my players making reasonable decisions, within genre, as opposed to just relying on hit points.

My question is, if you want your characters to not rely on hit points, why do the characters have enough hit points to suck up MG fire in the first place? If you want to play "Full Metal Jacket" the RPG, then your characters should be low level and, thus, totally vulnerable.

Look at Tom Hanks in SPR. He runs across a beach in full view of German MG42s, he steps out in front of one to draw fire, he charges another MG with grenades, stands out in the open in front of a German HT and attacks a T-34 with a pistol. Are these "realistic" behaviors?

A player may be thinking, "hey, that MG only does 2d10 points of damage and I have 40 hps left. I guess I'll charge that MG bunker with a grenade." However, the -character- is probably thinking, "That MG is holding up the entire invasion and killing lots of good men. I need to take it out NOW. I'll charge that MG bunker with a grenade." Just because a player is not concerned with the lethality of a particular weapon, doesn't mean the characters isn't concerened. He just has confidence in his ability (or, more likely, luck). Today is not my day to die.

Once a character hits 6th level or so, he is no longer operating under the laws of nature. When attempting to come up with realistic behaving weapon, you must concern yourself with normal people who have less than 15 hps. Saying that a 20th level character with 100 hps can survive up a LAW hit, therefore a LAW must do 110 points of damage is totally missing the point.


Aaron

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Hrm. I'm getting sucked into the gun cultism ... nooooooo!!

Reading and thinking, I agree that burst was developed to help hit the target, not put more bullets into the target, though you can certainly do that.

To that end I'm going to offer the Burst-Fire option of a flat +2 on the attack roll. Use Burst, get a +2 to your attack ... this works for trained and untrained people alike. Those with the feat can opt, INSTEAD, to do the -4 attack/+2 Dice Damage thingie.

I think that seems fair and represents the use of burst fire to put more bullets in the air (within reason) toward the end of hitting the enemy with at least one of them.

Not sure about "Hose'em Charlie!" autofire. Just don't like it. Cinematically, though, you always see people get shot three and four times with an MG or SMG. The rules just don't allow for some poor sucker to get riddled with holes. Maybe 1d3-1 dice of extra damage if only one target is in the beaten zone to take the punishment. I'm trying to think in terms of "What'll force a MDT save more often?" as opposed to "dude, you so shot him 8 times ... 16d8 damage. Hooah!".

--fje

EDIT: Heh. And the thing is, I'm going to heavily curtail any PC use of weapons larger than legal-carry handguns. I don't expect them to often use or even WANT SMGs/MGs... well, maybe want them, but not want to deal with the legal fecal-hurricane they'll find themselves in should they start laying waste to things.

So I imagine the PCs will be on the wrong end of a machine gun more often than not. Anything I do to make them MORE lethal will pain the PCs more than help them.

I'm such a total stinker.

 

[Ranger REG]

So, you think a burst should allow better attack bonus because the chance of a singular target to get hit by only one of the five or three rounds increases, and autofire should just increase damage bonus in a 10-by-10 area.

Hmm.

 

[Aaron2]

Not sure about "Hose'em Charlie!" autofire. Just don't like it. Cinematically, though, you always see people get shot three and four times with an MG or SMG. The rules just don't allow for some poor sucker to get riddled with holes. Maybe 1d3-1 dice of extra damage if only one target is in the beaten zone to take the punishment. I'm trying to think in terms of "What'll force a MDT save more often?" as opposed to "dude, you so shot him 8 times ... 16d8 damage. Hooah!".

One of the mechanics I've seen is to keep rolling until you miss to determine how many shots hit. Its slightly faster than rolling for every shot. I've also seen a variation of this which is to keep rolling until you miss or you roll higher than the previous roll. So, for example, if you need a 14 to hit and roll a 20, 18, and then a 16 you hit three times but if you roll a 18, 16, and then a 20 you only hit twice. I have to make sure the to-hit bonus isn't so high that the odds of hitting three (or two) times in a row is less than the odds of hitting once with a single shot.

The affect of this is that if you odds of hitting normally are very low, the effect is an increased chance of a hit while if your odds are already high, the main effect will be an increase in damage due to multiple hits.

As to a spray over a large area, a Reflex save is ok (assuming it considers cover) but the DC should probably take into consideration the firer's skill, the size of the area being sprayed and the ROF of the MG. Assuming no elevation considerations, if you are twice as far away, you are 1/2 as likely to be hit. If you are 1/2 as close you should be twice as likely to be hit. I sense a chart coming.

A similar thing can be done with this reflex save whereas you keep getting hit as long as you keep rolling higher and still failing.


Aaron

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

So, you think a burst should allow better attack bonus because the chance of a singular target to get hit by only one of the five or three rounds increases, and autofire should just increase damage bonus in a 10-by-10 area.

Hmm.

Well, the thing is, they're different mechanics. Autofire is an area-attack "Jesus Saves, the rest of you take damage" style rule and Burst Fire is still a normal attack roll.

I'd have to look at the math. I'm not saying everybody in the 10x10 will take more damage, I'm just thinking about "oh no, Johnny got hosed!" and how/where to recreate that. It's in Burst Fire as a negative to attack and +2 dice of damage.

What I'm saying is, is the better "attack bonus" in that the attacker need only hit AC 10 (the 10x10 area) with his "Attack" to put the threat down on the people within it?

The "+1d3-1 Dice" is, more often, for one unlucky fellow or somebody putting the hose to an Ogre with an assault rifle.

Bleh, it was an idea I had in 30 seconds. I guess it doesn't work. I suppose I'm just seeing the value in the argument of: "What the hell, I can't do any more damage to the side of this barn/dragon with full auto than I can with a single shot?"

Emulating that without a thousand rules or entirely breaking the system is problematic.

--fje

 

[Aaron2]

Well, the thing is, they're different mechanics. Autofire is an area-attack "Jesus Saves, the rest of you take damage" style rule and Burst Fire is still a normal attack roll.

I don't see them as different types of attacks. One is spraying a 10x10 area and the other is spraying a 5x5 area (i.e. one guy). A unified mechanic would be nice.

Emulating that without a thousand rules or entirely breaking the system is problematic.

It's not a problem, its a challenge.


Aaron the insprirational speaker

 

[swrushing]

Which is pretty much what the heavy MG reflects, but if you're asking me that any automatic weapon, incluidng SMGs, should cause greater damage when using autofire attack (not counting burst fire on a singular target) to those in the 10-by-10 area without further training (like Point Blank Shot, if the GM allows), the I disagree.

As do I. IMG the hose down area allows only one hit per target in the spread.

Thats why i kept making a point about this being the rule for hose down one target.