Problems with firearms?

[danzig138]

For grins, I made a chart of how the various d20 rules handle autofire.

Cool. That's the most useful thing found in this thread so far.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Indeed. That was a nice idea, Aaron2.

Looking for more comparisons of different mechanics and house rules. Things seem to be breaking down into Point-Counterpoint, which never really goes anywhere.

--fje

 

[Aaron2]

Are you suggesting that at 14th levels the dcs will automatically have risen to keep the die roll as random?

Yes. First level characters are fighting conscripts (or Italians), 6th level characters are fighting veteran SS. First level characters are climbing a rocky outcropping, sixth level characters are scaling castle walls in Bavaria. First level characters are riding around in halftracks, 6th level characters are parachuting behind enemy lines. The challenge, and hence DC, increases as the players level up. Things that were difficult for first level characters, such as ambushing drunken garrison troops, don't happen anymore or they are resolved behind the scenes.

lethal threats does not, in spite of all the propoganda to the contrary, lead one inevitably to random bullets killing your heroes in the first scene.

The sooner you take that straw man and ditch him, the sooner you will understand what i am saying.

I guess I don't understand what your saying. How can a threat be considered lethal if there isn't a chance that the PC will die from it? If there is a chance, what is to prevent a PC from dying in the first scene (i.e. by the first attack against him)?


Aaron

 

[ledded]

Hrm. I'm getting sucked into the gun cultism ... nooooooo!!

Reading and thinking, I agree that burst was developed to help hit the target, not put more bullets into the target, though you can certainly do that.

To that end I'm going to offer the Burst-Fire option of a flat +2 on the attack roll. Use Burst, get a +2 to your attack ... this works for trained and untrained people alike. Those with the feat can opt, INSTEAD, to do the -4 attack/+2 Dice Damage thingie.

I think that seems fair and represents the use of burst fire to put more bullets in the air (within reason) toward the end of hitting the enemy with at least one of them.

Hmm... an interesting idea. I would say this would only work 'untrained' if the weapon had a burst setting. I'll think on this some more later.

Not sure about "Hose'em Charlie!" autofire. Just don't like it. Cinematically, though, you always see people get shot three and four times with an MG or SMG. The rules just don't allow for some poor sucker to get riddled with holes. Maybe 1d3-1 dice of extra damage if only one target is in the beaten zone to take the punishment. I'm trying to think in terms of "What'll force a MDT save more often?" as opposed to "dude, you so shot him 8 times ... 16d8 damage. Hooah!".

Well, emulating your favorite movies aside, I still stand by my assertion that 'area autofire' is not as dangerous to a *single person* than some people/hollywood would have you believe. Certainly it is dangerous, and likely you will be injured and/or killed, but actually putting those 10 autofire bullets on one guy all at once is, well, extremely improbable.

--fje

EDIT: Heh. And the thing is, I'm going to heavily curtail any PC use of weapons larger than legal-carry handguns. I don't expect them to often use or even WANT SMGs/MGs... well, maybe want them, but not want to deal with the legal fecal-hurricane they'll find themselves in should they start laying waste to things.

So I imagine the PCs will be on the wrong end of a machine gun more often than not. Anything I do to make them MORE lethal will pain the PCs more than help them.

I'm such a total stinker.

Heh. Why would they want the legal hassles of those MG's and whatnot when they can get a 10 gauge shotgun?

 

[ledded]

Note: He died.

But not by autofire, even though he had tons of it tossed at him during the movie

 

[VirgilCaine]

Well, emulating your favorite movies aside, I still stand by my assertion that 'area autofire' is not as dangerous to a *single person* than some people/hollywood would have you believe. Certainly it is dangerous, and likely you will be injured and/or killed, but actually putting those 10 autofire bullets on one guy all at once is, well, extremely improbable.

Heh. Why would they want the legal hassles of those MG's and whatnot when they can get a 10 gauge shotgun?

Because 10 gauge shells weigh a lot.

I have to agree with the autofire. Getting 10 rifle rounds on target on full auto wouldn't be too easy I think...

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

Yes. First level characters are fighting conscripts (or Italians), 6th level characters are fighting veteran SS. First level characters are climbing a rocky outcropping, sixth level characters are scaling castle walls in Bavaria. First level characters are riding around in halftracks, 6th level characters are parachuting behind enemy lines. The challenge, and hence DC, increases as the players level up. Things that were difficult for first level characters, such as ambushing drunken garrison troops, don't happen anymore or they are resolved behind the scenes.

That is certainly an interesting play style you are describing, but it is not the one the rules seem to be expecting. By the rules of the game, whether you are a 15th level character or a 3rd level character, when a friend goes down (perhaps from a failed MDS) the roll you need to stabilize him before he croaks is a 15. For the high level guy, that roll may be automatic... he may have enough skill levels and bonuses that no roll is required or it may be a trivial one. For the 3rd level guy, that roll may be very difficult.

In a game where that dc scaled upwards by level, or where no friends needed stabilizing at 15th level, things would depart fairly drastically.

Anyway, in my games, higher level skill ranks show themselves by both being able to do tougher things, to chance harder tasks AND by the ability to do without worry the tasks that you used to have to fret over. I have to feel that if i as Gm simply scripted away those tasks now easy, like stabilizing a mortally wounded guy, things would feel really strange.

"Wow, all the doors to the securioty lab are open and unlocked, except this one with the nine level algorithm cipher lock. thats just odd?"

I guess I don't understand what your saying. How can a threat be considered lethal if there isn't a chance that the PC will die from it? If there is a chance, what is to prevent a PC from dying in the first scene (i.e. by the first attack against him)?
Aaron

Ok, lets use a simple example...

Dirty Harry, in apite of being a star of the film, knows that if he is tossed out of the space shuttle naked in orbit, it will kill him. Such an action has a chance, a good chance, of killing him. he does not believe he can just take it because as a fifth level character he is superhuman and can step outside the laws of reality.

That does not mean that in the opening scene of his new movie he is going to be thrown out of the space shuttle and killed.

Get it?

Instead, were dirty harry IN DANGER OF being thrown out of a space shuttle, there would be ways for him to prevent it. Heck, he might even see his new rookie partner get thrown out of the space shuttle and die, giving harry the chance to get to his gun and shoot the bad guy in the process.

But either way, harry would never consider taking the walk outside as an option. he would not consider letting himself get throw outside because he knows he will have plenty of time to work out a solution out there.

This is a case of the THREAT preventing outlandish options and just because the threat exists does not mean it must be going to occur at an inoportune time..

Similarly, if i know the machine gun wont drop me until say 3-4 rounds of fire have elapsed, then i will be perfectly happy to take 1-2 rounds of MG fire if i can solve the situation in that time. Say for instance i am trying to shut down the driod control system and so i do so, taking the fire for 1-2 rtounds but ending the battle before they can wear thru my thick skin of tons of hit points. BAM... thats a very reasonable decision to solve the problem... givien the game mechanics... but a very unreasonable choice of events from story wise.

Its like unto the DND 12th level guys who decides to jump off the roof of a tall building to get to the ground quicker, since he knows he has the HP tp take it. (more extreme and even sloppier rules.)

On the other hand, if i believe that any round of being hosed down by a MG can and likely will drop me, then the notion of just taking the shots becomes a non-option. So, now i seek cover, concealment, or even to distract the driods so i can get the time. This might mean it takes me longer, but it also means it has a chance of success.

But, the fact that thr MG fire could drop me, doesn't mean that as part of the dtory a droid surprised me in the opening scene and killed me before we ever got to the dramatic point.

hopefuolly that clears that up.

 

[swrushing]

Well, emulating your favorite movies aside, I still stand by my assertion that 'area autofire' is not as dangerous to a *single person* than some people/hollywood would have you believe. Certainly it is dangerous, and likely you will be injured and/or killed, but actually putting those 10 autofire bullets on one guy all at once is, well, extremely improbable.

I agree completely... thats why my autofire mechanic emphasizes the tremendous waste of ammo and typically has one bullet out of 10 fired at the MOST hitting the target ny normally trained folks, much worse by untrained folks (lower to hit chance means more volleys wasted getting on target) and even very trained guys (good to hit chance and autofire feats) only manage to get that down to about 1 bullet ijn 8 hitting the target on the one target hose down.

Autofire hose down at close range by a very trained individual putting 1 bullet in 8 on the target... a far cry from 10 of 10.

So we dont really disagree on that point.

 

[Aaron2]

"Wow, all the doors to the securioty lab are open and unlocked, except this one with the nine level algorithm cipher lock. thats just odd?"

I would say, "Unlike all the other security doors that you unlocked easily, this one has a nine level algorithm cipher lock."


OK, back to the topic. I have written up some sample auto fire rules here ...

http://jtjaguar.home.texas.net/AaronsAutofire.html

Any comment appreciated.


Aaron

 

[VirgilCaine]

I would say, "Unlike all the other security doors that you unlocked easily, this one has a nine level algorithm cipher lock."

It's the same as introducing one or two encounters far below the EL of a high level party in D&D (these first to reward the players for getting to high levels), and then skipping over/fast forwarding through similar encounters, to save time.