Problems with Greater Magic Weapon

[SheepLord]

Well my party just used GMW for the first time from the party cleric. His bonus was at +2 currently. They were buffing up for a fight vs a Clay Golem. +2 arrows and +2 greatsword vs a creature immune to piercing and slashing made me laugh so hard I fell out of my chair. I'm glad there are still some players out there who don't read the Monster Manual.

Oh, they ended up bringing it down since the cleric in question also had 3 Magic Stone spells, hehe.

 

[Darklone]

Jester, I don't have a problem with Cat's Grace, Endurance etc. just more power to my players if they use those.

But they'll never buy or use another Belt of Giant Strength. The party cleric casts on himself Twice empowered Bull's Strength on the morning, and that's up to +10 to STR. Way better than the Belt. They also trade spells, for example the sorc will lend the cleric an empowered endurance for a death ward. This is actually a good thing, IMHO.

Wait a moment ... Twice empowered??? That WORKS? Sorry, I would not allow that one. Even if he maximises and empowers the spell, that's a 7th lvl slot each day for puny 7 points more strength. I am not impressed.

About those GMW loaded players... I prefer low magic settings and don't have that problem. But if I would ... my monsters DR is not effected by +x weapons, but they don't like certain weapon materials. That way, you can have a +5 weapon but that won't help you against a ghost. A nonmagical jade dagger will help.

Besides: Use monsters who can only be hurt by NONMAGICAL weapons. That will wake the players up for sure! Include those monsters who are HEALED by magical weapons .... and drain the boni ... and your players have hell on earth.

Besides: Casting GMW on a keen flaming weapon +1 will simply turn it into a normal weapon +4 ... if the GMW is strong enough for a +3 it will change nothing.

And yes: If players start to turn on their shields every morning by casting long time spells on themselves... a targeted greater dispel magic will hurt them. If you play high magic and the players got those spells on wands... destroy the wands. Or give your enemies those wands. Steal the wands. There are soo many nice possibilities.

 

[Storm Raven]

Wait a moment ... Twice empowered??? That WORKS?

I believe that according to the Sage it does. I don't see a problem with it overall, since you apply the level boost to the spell each time you apply a metamagic feat to it, so a double empowered spell is going to occupy a pretty high level slot. Probably a slot better used for something else when you get right down to brass tacks too.

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

When the rules for dispel magic state that "Magic items are not affected by area dispels" I think it refers to the fact that dispel magic, when targetted, can suppress the functioning of that magic item. I do not think it is meant to be interpreted as "any spell cast upon a magic item is immune to dispel magic (when cast as an area dispel)".

I agree that I think that is what they meant and I wish that that is what they had written. Unfortunately, they instead wrote "Magic items are not affected by area dispels. " If a magic object has had a spell on it and that object is not affected by area dispels, I don't see anyway short of a house rule that you can justify removing the spell from that object.

As for objects with spells on them in the possession of people hit with targetted dispels, I honestly don't know what they meant to happen. Maybe your GMW sword is considered part of you (like for a touch attack) and maybe it is not. Without clarification though, I would have to assume that it is not. If the object was specifically targetted with a spell, then it seems it should have to be specifically targetted with a dispel; and nothing in the rules indicates otherwise. (shrug)

PS: Sent an email to The Sage about this.

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

Casting GMW on a keen flaming weapon +1 will simply turn it into a normal weapon +4 ... if the GMW is strong enough for a +3 it will change nothing.

From the SRD:

This spell gives a weapon an enhancement bonus to attack and damage of +1 per three caster levels (maximum +5). An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapons +1 bonus on attacks.

It says nothing about removing or replacing existing powers. It simply overlaps the exisiting enchancment bonus to hit and damage.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I agree that I think that is what they meant and I wish that that is what they had written.

But Xahn'Tyr, if you know what they meant, what difference does it make if the wording allows for a loophole? You take the rule as you know it was meant, and leave it at that.

Wringing a contrary, literal interpretation out of a rule that you fully understand the intention of, only to create a problem that, were the spirit followed would not exist, seems like asking for problems. You know how it's supposed to work. Ignore the possible mis-readings of it, and move on.

 

[UofMDude]

As for objects with spells on them in the possession of people hit with targetted dispels, I honestly don't know what they meant to happen. Maybe your GMW sword is considered part of you (like for a touch attack) and maybe it is not. Without clarification though, I would have to assume that it is not. If the object was specifically targetted with a spell, then it seems it should have to be specifically targetted with a dispel; and nothing in the rules indicates otherwise. (shrug)

Barring a ruling to the contrary from the sage I would do this for targeted dispels:

Since creatures and objects can be targeted differently by dispel magic I would assume that if a creature is the target that only spells with a "target creature" (or "target creatures") or "personal" area of effect would have a chance to be dispeled.

UofMDude

 

[Numion]

Wait a moment ... Twice empowered??? That WORKS? Sorry, I would not allow that one. Even if he maximises and empowers the spell, that's a 7th lvl slot each day for puny 7 points more strength. I am not impressed.

About those GMW loaded players... I prefer low magic settings and don't have that problem. But if I would ... my monsters DR is not effected by +x weapons, but they don't like certain weapon materials. That way, you can have a +5 weapon but that won't help you against a ghost. A nonmagical jade dagger will help.

Besides: Use monsters who can only be hurt by NONMAGICAL weapons. That will wake the players up for sure! Include those monsters who are HEALED by magical weapons .... and drain the boni ... and your players have hell on earth.

Besides: Casting GMW on a keen flaming weapon +1 will simply turn it into a normal weapon +4 ... if the GMW is strong enough for a +3 it will change nothing.

And yes: If players start to turn on their shields every morning by casting long time spells on themselves... a targeted greater dispel magic will hurt them. If you play high magic and the players got those spells on wands... destroy the wands. Or give your enemies those wands. Steal the wands. There are soo many nice possibilities.

Wouldn't that be unfair and frustrating to the players (I mean all you suggested)? They have a wand -> steal it! They have a spell -> it doesn't work. They have a magic weapon --> it HEALS the monster.

I don't think your suggestions are very usable. It isn't my intention to short-circuit my players tactics, but to develope counter-tactics that NPCs can use.

About the targeted dispel: Of course a targeted dispel against a player loaded on spells is hurtful for the one player, but is that really wise for the spellcaster who is against the whole group of adventurers, not just the one character.?

It's usually more advantageous to assault the party with area spells rather than targeted dispels.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Unfortunately, they instead wrote "Magic items are not affected by area dispels. " If a magic object has had a spell on it and that object is not affected by area dispels, I don't see anyway short of a house rule that you can justify removing the spell from that object.

Simple.

The magic item is not affected. The spell on the magic item is.

When you cast an area dispel in an area that includes a summoned creature, you don't dispel the creature. You dispel the spell that summoned the creature. That's why SR doesn't come into play - because it's the creature that has SR, not the spell.

When you cast an area spell in an area that includes a GMW'd +1 shortsword, you don't suppress the shortsword. (That's what targetted dispels are for.) You dispel the spell on the shortsword. The magic item is not affected. The spell that was cast on it is.

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

but is that really wise for the spellcaster who is against the whole group of adventurers, not just the one character.?

Probably not. Since you were mentioning tactics that NPCs can use against the PCs, consider the fact that the situation you just outlined is 1 NPC vs. a group of suped-up PCs. The first tactic the NPC baddie should consider is getting some friends. Instead of one wizard facing off against the PCs, consider a scenario in which one wizard faces the PCs with three friends, a rogue, fighter, and evil cleric. Now, while the other three are keeping the party busy, it gives the wizard (or even the cleric) the time to start throwing around dispels. One against many is always going to be a weak position. Hey, NPCs can form groups too.

It's usually more advantageous to assault the party with area spells rather than targeted dispels.

For a lone wizard, I agree with you 100%.