Problems with saving throws?

[steeldragons]

The problem was in two different modules characters needed to say jump across a cavern. In one module it called for a save verse petrification to do that and in another module it called for a save verse spells. I'm totally making up that example and I don't recall what modules this happened in but we did see it happen. But modules were not consistent in what was needed for these special actions.

In other instances there would be an action described by did not list specifically what type of save was needed. The DM then was the one trying to determine what made the best sense as it was not always clear.

To the first paragraph, again with respect, I will not enter into discussion over a "made up" example. I understand what you're saying, but maybe there was some mitigating factor in each particular module to warrant a different one? That said, early D&D was not known for it's consistency in published modules. hahaha. Just a trait of the animal to be accepted...or not.

In a game I'd run, regardless of what the module said, to "jump across a cavern" I would have ignored the module and asked for Dexterity+Strength checks...2d20, roll under yer Str & Dex combined. But that's me, my kinda game.

To your second paragraph, YES! That,again, was the DMs job. To adjudicate and create a fun yet challenging environment for the players to engage in. Really...not so hard! Again, if there was no presented "save", I'd chalk it up to an "ability check"...whatever the relevant ability was.

I dunno...doesn't seem to me to be so hard...but I'm not everyone. Nor, I will say to "toot" my own horn of blasting Never had any complaints on my adjudicating skillzzzzz....I gotz skillz. lol.

--SD

 

[Spatula]

One of the objections fans of 3+e D&D have raised that I've never understood in the slightest is issues with saving throws. I never thought twice about pre-3e D&D's saving throws, which essentially boiled down to, "here's a short list of special attacks that allow a saving throw to lessen or avoid their effect. Roll the number listed in the chart or above to make the saving throw."

"Wand" is a special attack?

My personal knock against 1e/2e saving throws is that the categories were nonsensical (why have a save for effect X or delivery method A but not Y or B? why are they in the order they're in?); the categories overlapped, requiring a special rule to determine which save to make in those cases; and the numbers were pretty much pulled out of a hat, which goes somewhat hand-in-hand with the nonsensical categories. While it's certainly playable, it's needlessly cumbersome, and IMO doesn't have a good rationale for being designed the way it was.

The benefits of the FRW system (at least as it's used in 3e) is that it's simple and elegant; you immediately know what save applies to any particular situation, without having to consider the source or if it's trumped by a different category; and it's clear why your character is good or bad at different categories (fighters are tough, rogues are quick, etc.).

 

[Crothian]

I dunno...doesn't seem to me to be so hard...but I'm not everyone. Nor, I will say to "toot" my own horn of blasting Never had any complaints on my adjudicating skillzzzzz....I gotz skillz. lol.

--SD

I'm not saying it's tough but I was answering the OP question.

 

[steeldragons]

I'm not saying it's tough but I was answering the OP question.

Ugh, "I've given out too much XP in the last 24 hours"...I haven't even been awake for 15 of those 24!

Anywho, I WOULD have XP'd "no worries. Thanks for the response. "

--SD

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, Patryn of Elvenshae, and say because it was coming from a wand...it had to be aimed to hit?

Which is why, of course, the disintegrate spell with its green ray used the "Vs. Wand, Staff, or Rod" saving throw?

...

 

[steeldragons]

Which is why, of course, the disintegrate spell with its green ray used the "Vs. Wand, Staff, or Rod" saving throw?

...

It was?!? Really?!...Oh wait...yeah, ok...well...yeah...it was, specifically a green RAY...if you saved, the ray missed...as with "wands, staves and rods".

Makes sense. (and INcreases lots of characters chances of survivng, so doesn't strike me as a BAD thing. )


--SD

 

[Bullgrit]

I never really thought there was anything wrong with the BD&D and AD&D saving throws, either. And I still don't think they were "wrong" or "bad". But when I saw how D&D3 worked them, I thought the new mechanics were an improvement. Just like how D&D3 switched around AC to go up instead of down. It just seemed like a mechanical improvement to a solid concept.

Nothing is so perfect that it can't be improved on. And improving something doesn't retroactively make the something lesser. (But I'm not also saying that changing something is always an improvement.)

But there is something thrilling about saying, "Save vs. death magic!"

BULLGRIT T-Shirt Designs Total Bullgrit

Bullgrit

 

[steeldragons]

I never really thought there was anything wrong with the BD&D and AD&D saving throws, either. And I still don't think they were "wrong" or "bad". But when I saw how D&D3 worked them, I thought the new mechanics were an improvement. Just like how D&D3 switched around AC to go up instead of down. It just seemed like a mechanical improvement to a solid concept.

Nothing is so perfect that it can't be improved on. And improving something doesn't retroactively make the something lesser. (But I'm not also saying that changing something is always an improvement.)

But there is something thrilling about saying, "Save vs. death magic!"

BULLGRIT T-Shirt Designs Total Bullgrit

Bullgrit

LOLOLOL!

Nice.

Shouldn't the last line read "If you have to roll, you're screwed."...?

How much for a shirt? Can I get it edited? hahaha.

 

[Wiseblood]

Ability scores modified saving throw only in a handful of circumstances in D&D prior to 3e.

The lack of a good skill system was the cause of most confusion.

Saving against a monster ability or npc spellcaster things are fairly routine. In the case of monsters it was right there in the description. Also saving throws in earlier editions had specific priority to avoid confusion.

When 3e was developed there was greater emphasis on ability scores and bonuses over experience. This emphasis almost necesitates a system like the one presented.

IMO saving throws pre-3E were no more confusing or random than CR or DC's in 3e.

 

[Bullgrit]

Shouldn't the last line read "If you have to roll, you're screwed."...?

How much for a shirt? Can I get it edited? hahaha.

I aim to please:
BULLGRIT T-Shirt Designs Total Bullgrit
^^ that's a hidden section in my store, just for this edited version.

If this version sells better than the other, I'll move it to the main store.

Bullgrit