Problems with saving throws?

[steeldragons]

Steeldragons indicated that a possible reason wands had easier saving throws was because they had to be aimed. So I asked about disinitegration which, as you note, would be a saving throw vs. spell. (Probably; see below.)

But, even though disintegrate creates "thin, green ray" (AD&D 2nd Edition PHB, I just walked downstairs and checked it), which would presumably have to be aimed, it doesn't use the "wand, staff, or rod" saving throw value.

Ergo, "it has to be aimed" is not a valid reason for the difference between a wand save and a spell save.

Oh well. I tried.

Was I, at least, correct that disintegrate required a "to hit" roll to initiate a save? Don't have the description in front of me and it's been a lonnnng time since I had a group powerful enugh to either use or face a disintegrate spell.

As I said earlier, your point seems to be collectively agreed with...1e saves were somewhat inconsistent. But I don't ever recall arguments or problems arising in play because of that. If it seemed "out of place", as I said, I would just change it to a save I thought fit better or make it an ability check...which, in essence, seems to be what the subsequent Fort/Will/Reflex saves were based around.

That said, how would people make a transition from "ye elder" to "ye newer"?
Just goin' off the top of my head now, think I would go something like this:

Poison: Is probably the most obvious, Fort. Your constitution/immune system/however you want to define it, either succumbs to the poison fully, partially, or not at all.
Paralysis: depends on the kind of attack, I think...Fort if it were a physical (some creature's natural attack, as this might easily be caused/interpreted to "Poison") or Will if it were a spell/enchantment effect.
Death Magic: might be the toughest one...as it is at first glance, specifically "magic", which would lead one say Will...but but I think it would more appropriately be chosen on an individual basis based on the cause...as Spells, see below.

Rods, Staves, Wands: I think, again, depends ont he type of attack/spell being put forth by the item. A wand that has some Enchantment/Charm effect would certainly be Will...those that would be beams or rays, like most Evocation type spells might be Reflex instead...if I had to pick one, I think I'd go with Reflex for these items across the board...even if a Spell with the same effect might be Will...or even Fort. So one might be able to avoid the "beam" effect from a Wand of Paralysis, but might not be able to resist a Hold Person spell...different saves even though the result/effect is the same...'cept for Magic Missles (wand or spell), of course.

Petrification and Polymorph: Even though these are almost surely Spell (or at least magical, i.e. a medusa's gaze) effects, I would attribute to Fortitude. This seems to make sense if one is undergoing the strain of such a phsyically demanding transformation. In fact, Transmutation spells in general, I think would fall under this category i.e. using "Reduce" on a foe/unwilling target to shrink them.

Spells: I'm afraid, and maybe this is just because I tend to enjoy a "magic heavy" environment, would have to be taken on an individual basis per spell effect or lumped in by magic "type/school". Mind effecting/altering like charms or [most] illusions would be Will. Reflex for beams, cones, things that require a "to hit"/"touch" spells or some kind of "avoidable" effects like [trying to] diving out of a fireball or ice storm's area of effect. Fort's for, as mentioned above, physical effects like polymorphing or Slow or even, say, "binding" someone with an Animated Rope or somesuch..

Breath Weapon: seems a fairly straightforward Reflex. Either you avoid it or you don't. No matter how "fortified" or "willful" you are, if you're in the line of fire and can't get, at least partially, out of it, you're toasted to some degree by that red dragon.

So yes, they lend themselves to some overlap or confusion when compared to FWR, but again, sorting out "da rulez"/"making the call" is really one of the essential elements the DM is for (or at least in the earlier editions was for). I don't think I would use the old system saves to avoid something like a "pit trap"...those poison spikes at the bottom, however, would be another story. hehheh.

--SD

 

[Spatula]

I immediately know which save applies in AD&D.

...and then your very next post is how it's not clear what save disintegrate should use. Personally I would say polymorph. It is an alteration spell, after all - the target is turned to dust. It's no more death magic (which to me would mean necromancy - something that directly attacks the life force of the target) than polymorphing a target into a fish on land is. Death is just a side effect of the spell in this case.

In 3e it's clearly a Fort save, as it's attempting to destroy the body. Stuff that can be dodged is Reflex, and stuff that affects the mind is Will. Easy and no guesswork involved, IME.

 

[Ariosto]

...and then your very next post is how it's not clear what save disintegrate should use.

It is clear to me.

It is also, in my experience, clear to most DMs including those who disagree with me as to whether the spell is one of those classed as Death Magic.

Any use of language other than simple and direct correspondence (which might as well be utterly arbitrary for all the inference it practically demands) -- "This thing uses X", which is how the save categories are in fact used in the 3.5 PHB -- though, is subject to potential ambiguity.

The bottom line is that Mr. Gygax did not think it worth the while to make an utterly unambiguous list of this save for that particular spell. In my experience, old-time D&Ders generally found it quite natural and acceptable that this should vary from campaign to campaign.

It apparently is not so acceptable among at least the forum-posting enthusiasts of WotC-D&D. What a firm offers puts a selection pressure on the composition of its customer base even before the customer base puts a recursive pressure on the nature of the product.

Many people who wanted more clear-cut rules in the early 1980s had options delivering just that. I don't know how many were not presented in the market with choices besides D&D, but I know that such a lack was not in evidence anywhere I went.

Personally I would say polymorph.

One reason I would not is that the subject is in fact not, as you claim, "turned to dust". Is that perhaps another reference to "2e"? The 1st ed. PHB clearly stipulates, "This spell causes matter to vanish."

In 3e it's clearly a Fort save, as it's attempting to destroy the body. Stuff that can be dodged is Reflex, and stuff that affects the mind is Will. Easy and no guesswork involved, IME.

Now I think you are really missing what ought to be your own point:

*** In 3e it's clearly a Fort save, as that is what is listed in the PHB. *** End of story, eh?

Such specification is in old D&D the exception rather than the rule.

I was speaking from my own experience as to the guesswork necessary for 3e without looking it up. The reason I guessed Reflex for fireball was the 1st ed. AD&D spell description, which refers to targets that "manage to dodge, fall flat or roll aside".

There is actually no such explicit warrant in the 3.5 PHB description, and the treatment of positions of figures in those rules hardly encourages the thought of "dodging" a 40' diameter blast centered on such a position. Wall of fire in 3.5 permits no saving throw, even though it is treated as a line with effectively zero horizontal depth. (I refer here not to those figures that pass through it but those treated as if they have passed through it because of its positioning.)

 

[Ariosto]

One rule that I think many people use is to choose the leftmost column on the table that seems applicable.

Thus (in contradiction of the DMG), a dragon with poisonous breath would use a Poison save rather than one for Dragon Breath.

If one thinks that disintegrate could be Death Magic, Polymorph or Spell, then it turns out to be Death Magic because that is the very first category.

 

[Ariosto]

It's no more death magic (which to me would mean necromancy...)...

That is interesting criterion. Let us apply it (along with the criterion of actual death) and see what matches up.

Among cleric spells, the reverse of raise dead (slay living, formerly the finger of death in OD&D) qualifies, as does the reverse of resurrection (destruction). The latter has no save, but requires a touch (which would normally be an attack in combat).

A holy (unholy) word -- which permits no save -- does not, as it is of the "Conjuration/Summoning" type.

Also of that type, and so not "death magic" by this rule, are the magic-user spells death spell and power word, kill -- neither of which permits a save.

Among all these, only one would involve a Death Magic save.

Note that death spell was in the Original D&D boxed set, which had a "Death Ray or Poison" save but no "Necromancy" spell type (or any other, for that matter).

 

[Votan]

...and then your very next post is how it's not clear what save disintegrate should use. Personally I would say polymorph. It is an alteration spell, after all - the target is turned to dust. It's no more death magic (which to me would mean necromancy - something that directly attacks the life force of the target) than polymorphing a target into a fish on land is. Death is just a side effect of the spell in this case.

In 3e it's clearly a Fort save, as it's attempting to destroy the body. Stuff that can be dodged is Reflex, and stuff that affects the mind is Will. Easy and no guesswork involved, IME.

I am not sure. Look at the 3.5 E description of disintegrate:

"A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger." Is this a Fortitude save to resist or a reflex save to dodge?

Compare it to lightning bolt:

"You release a powerful stroke of electrical energy that deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to each creature within its area. The bolt begins at your fingertips."

So it seems sometimes it is a ranged touch followed by a fortitude save and sometimes it is a straight reflex save. It is true that a bolt is likely larger than a ray but there is no reason to suppose that this is always true.

I never found the AD&D saves all that difficult to use, perhaps it was just familiarity?

 

[Spatula]

Now I think you are really missing what ought to be your own point:

*** In 3e it's clearly a Fort save, as that is what is listed in the PHB. *** End of story, eh?

That's true, but my point was that even which save to use was not in the PHB, the question could easily be answered without any guesswork. It destroys the body? Fort save.

I am not sure. Look at the 3.5 E description of disintegrate:

"A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger." Is this a Fortitude save to resist or a reflex save to dodge?

In 3e's case, it's a ranged touch attack to hit (as are all ray spells), and a Fortitude save to resist. It could have just as easily been a Reflex save followed by a Fort save. It's just one of the rule oddities in 3e that characters have two related-but-different mechanics for dodging stuff: the passive touch AC and the active Reflex save.

Compare it to lightning bolt:

So it seems sometimes it is a ranged touch followed by a fortitude save and sometimes it is a straight reflex save. It is true that a bolt is likely larger than a ray but there is no reason to suppose that this is always true.

The bolt is larger than a ray because that's what the spell description says. It's an area attack vs the single-target attack of a ray.

 

[Votan]

In 3e's case, it's a ranged touch attack to hit (as are all ray spells), and a Fortitude save to resist. It could have just as easily been a Reflex save followed by a Fort save. It's just one of the rule oddities in 3e that characters have two related-but-different mechanics for dodging stuff: the passive touch AC and the active Reflex save.

The bolt is larger than a ray because that's what the spell description says. It's an area attack vs the single-target attack of a ray.

Yes, but the bolt versus ray thing is obvious to a 3.5E player as they are familiar with the system and so the idea that a lightning bolt is an area attack is obvious. But just reading the text of the spell, it's really not obvious why it couldn't be handled the same way as scorching ray or disintegrate.

I think my main point is that the AD&D saving throw categories are just as obvious for those of us who used them. But all systems require some judgement for borderline cases.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Yes, but the bolt versus ray thing is obvious to a 3.5E player as they are familiar with the system and so the idea that a lightning bolt is an area attack is obvious. But just reading the text of the spell, it's really not obvious why it couldn't be handled the same way as scorching ray or disintegrate.

Lightning bolt, in my 3.5 PHB, says, in its text, "to each creature within its area."

I think it was the same way in 2e, and bounced. Not that my copy of Secret of the Silver Blades is an authoritative rules source, but I bounced lightning bolts across Zhentarim all the time there.

I think my main point is that the AD&D saving throw categories are just as obvious for those of us who used them. But all systems require some judgement for borderline cases.

Oh, I suspect that being very familiar with it helps greatly.

But I also suspect that there were far more borderline cases in 1e/2e than there would be in 3e, and that the 3e saves are easier for someone new to pick up.

Personally, I like the 4e approach of the saves as defenses, but that's completely off-topic.

Brad

 

[pawsplay]

Most of the time, "death ray" translated to Reflexes, even for traps and narrow escapes, "spell" translated to anything but was harder, and "dragon breath" was a very specialized save. Not only was it arbitrary, but you had to learn the special hiearachy... spell trumped everything else, for instance, while dragon breath trumped everything but spell. Classes had somewhat arbitrarily chosen strengths against spells and breaths.

Reflexes/Fort/Will is literally the same thing, but easier. The only thing I don't understand is why they invented the danged "ranged touch attack" when Reflexes (no effect) accomplishes the same thing more easily with better balance.