Problems with saving throws?

[steeldragons]

I aim to please:
BULLGRIT T-Shirt Designs Total Bullgrit
^^ that's a hidden section in my store, just for this edited version.

If this version sells better than the other, I'll move it to the main store.

Bullgrit

Done and done. Sorry for the hassle to ship to Andorra...though I imagine it's a much bigger pain for me to receive it than for you to send it. hahaha.

THANK YOU very very much for the special link!

--Steel Dragons

 

[Ariosto]

The benefits of the FRW system (at least as it's used in 3e) is that it's simple and elegant; you immediately know what save applies to any particular situation...

I immediately know which save applies in AD&D. In 3e I have to guess, but I usually guess right. When a spell has no save in AD&D, I think it is probably Will in 3e.

Of course, I need to look up the spell to know what it does, the components, the casting time, the range and area of effect, and whether it actually has a save in the first place. On top of that, looking up the save in 3e is pretty negligible.

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In 1st ed. AD&D, the categories are self-explanatory. The exceptions are:
(a) A polymorph wand uses the Rod, Staff or Wand save.
(b) A breath weapon that causes petri/poly uses the Petrification or Polymorph save.
(c) So does such a spell.
(d) A spell of Paralyzation, Poison or Death Magic likewise uses that column.

Otherwise, a wand is a wand, a spell a spell, a breath weapon a breath weapon.

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The FRW system as implemented is nice if what you want to do is what 3e has you do. You've got class and level and ability score bundled on one side, to add to a dice roll, and on the other side you plug in a calculated DC.

 

[Ariosto]

Which is why, of course, the disintegrate spell with its green ray used the "Vs. Wand, Staff, or Rod" saving throw?

What are you referring to?

There is no "green ray" mentioned in the disintegrate spell description.
There is no "Wand, Staff or Rod" saving throw in the disintegrate spell description.

It is a spell, which suggests the Spell value. I would treat it as Death Magic, though, both because disintegration is (to put it mildly) death and because that goes with my "When in doubt, screw the m-us!" principle.

Just what constitutes "Death Magic" is one of those things left to the discretion of each Dungeon Master. Maybe Gary thought it more obvious than it is. I suppose it may have been addressed in "Sage Advice" in The Dragon, but I do not know.

 

[dagger]

The lack of a good skill system was the cause of most confusion.

Gonna have to disagree with this comment, because I never saw or experienced (and still don't) said confusion.

 

[grodog]

But there is something thrilling about saying, "Save vs. death magic!"

Excellent point: I got to say that a few times this past weekend, in my Black Reservoir games at the NTX RPG Con---and that's nearly as horrifying to a player as hearing "you just lost a level"

 

[rogueattorney]

The categories were inconsistent and the differentiation between them was sketchy, at best.

Why is it inherently harder or easier (depending on level or class) to save against a spell as it is being cast vs. the same spell in a wand?

It was a trade off. Spells were more powerful (harder to save against) but wands and other devices were more reliable (harder to disrupt). In every case, going down the chart, you have a 5% better chance of saving against a device than a spell. So maybe it would have been better to eliminate one of the save categories and have a notation somewhere saying that all characters get a +1 to save against magical effects from devices. But that seems like the type of rule that people complain about missing in AD&D.

Not sure what is meant by the categories are inconsistent and there was sketchy differentiation between them. Of the very few times more than one thing might apply (Wand of Paralysis, for example), the rules plainly state which save applies. If there are any cases that don't state which one applies (I haven't found one yet), how hard is it to just pick one? And how is that any different from 3.x+ e when both reflex and fortitude might apply?

 

[rogueattorney]

In 3e though it usually works out to be a different DC for a spell cast by a caster or a wand since the lowest attribute needed to cast the spell.

But yes, the old system was clumsy and not everyone was always clear on which type of save an attack was. And then in modules they would have special situations that needed a save and they would just pick one of the categories. In a different module the same effect would require a different save.

If the DM (or module writer) came up with a different challenge that wasn't covered in the rules, it was in the DM's (or module writer's) discretion to allow a save and set the target value. It's really no different than a later edition DM coming up with a challenge not covered in the rules and determining that it can be avoided with a fortitude save.

Personally, I think the DM allowing a save for a challenge not specifically listed among the save categories in O(A)D&D is the DM being nice. But I do it all the time.

 

[Corathon]

But there is something thrilling about saying, "Save vs. death magic!"

Yup - although "Save vs. Death or die" is my preferred phrasing

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

What are you referring to?

There is no "green ray" mentioned in the disintegrate spell description.
There is no "Wand, Staff or Rod" saving throw in the disintegrate spell description.

You missed the point I was making.

Steeldragons indicated that a possible reason wands had easier saving throws was because they had to be aimed. So I asked about disinitegration which, as you note, would be a saving throw vs. spell. (Probably; see below.)

But, even though disintegrate creates "thin, green ray" (AD&D 2nd Edition PHB, I just walked downstairs and checked it), which would presumably have to be aimed, it doesn't use the "wand, staff, or rod" saving throw value.

Ergo, "it has to be aimed" is not a valid reason for the difference between a wand save and a spell save.

Just what constitutes "Death Magic" is one of those things left to the discretion of each Dungeon Master. Maybe Gary thought it more obvious than it is. I suppose it may have been addressed in "Sage Advice" in The Dragon, but I do not know.

It is a spell, which suggests the Spell value. I would treat it as Death Magic, though, both because disintegration is (to put it mildly) death and because that goes with my "When in doubt, screw the m-us!" principle.

Not sure what is meant by the categories are inconsistent and there was sketchy differentiation between them. Of the very few times more than one thing might apply (Wand of Paralysis, for example), the rules plainly state which save applies.

 

[Orius]

There's a thread over on RPG.net which covers similar ground. The author makes some attempt to reason out the logic behind the pre-3e saves, and it's an interesting read. His conclusion is that the saves make sense in their own way, the problem is that Gary never really explained the reasoning behind the saves so they may seem a bit arbitrary. Come to think of it, a lot of pre-3 feels that way: there is a logic behind it all, and there is consideration for balance, but there's not much explanation behind it so it often feels arbitrary.

The old 5 saves were confusing when you needed a save for something that isn't explicitly covered in the categories. Yes, if it's a listed effect it's quite clear what you use, and certain saves take priority when there is overlap, but it's not always the case. I had that problem all the time when I set up traps; if it's not one of the listed effects, what save do I use? I got this pit trap here (and this came up often because I like pits a lot), what save is appropriate? It's not poison, it's not being shot out of a wand or breathed at the PC, it's not a spell, and it's not transforming them. I'd end up picking whatever I thought the PCs were more likely to fail TBH. With F/R/W it's a lot easier for the DM, saving against a pit is really a matter of dodging or avoiding something, so it's obviously Reflex.

This is the biggest weakness in the old system; there's little advice for the DM when assigning a save that falls outside the system; the 2e DMG offers some suggestions, but I find 3e's saves to be much more intuitive to assign when DMing. And then of course because it's pre-3e sometimes you don't even have the save, you go for an ability check instead. Even the module writers tended to be kind of inconsistant about things, which doesn't make it any easier for the average DM.