D&D 3E/3.5 [PsiHB]What house rules do you use for making Psionic Wild Talents in 3E?

Jarval

Explorer
You beat me to it Wolf

Wolf beat me to it on posting the Wild Talent feats we worked out :) By only, oh, four days!

Tome and GuardianLurker: One of the main reasons we decided against giving PP's with this feat is that it gave the pre-requisites for psionic feats. Wolf thought that having access to these would over-power things somewhat, and I had to agree with him. That said, with the higher pre-requisites of your feat Tome, and the weaker effect, it might not be as bad.

People have already raised the problems with using the Psionic template for wild talents. One of the reasons I made my Wild Talent feat was so that it wouldn't cost a class level to have some minor psionic ability. I think that for the effect, a feat is about the right cost.
 
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GuardianLurker

Adventurer
Re: You beat me to it Wolf

Jarval said:

Tome and GuardianLurker: One of the main reasons we decided against giving PP's with this feat is that it gave the pre-requisites for psionic feats. Wolf thought that having access to these would over-power things somewhat, and I had to agree with him. That said, with the higher pre-requisites of your feat Tome, and the weaker effect, it might not be as bad.

Hmm...

I don't know - full psionic characters have access to all of the psionic feats anyway, so they're already included in the game (unless you've ruled-0 them away).

Under my system, all psionic feats have a "Must have taken a wild talent feat or a level in a psionic class" pre-req in addition to all the normal ones. Furthermore, since I've made Inner Strength the only source of power points, most of the higher power feats would require it to be taken multiple times to satisfy the reserve requirement. Now, I must admit that IDHTBIFOM, but IIRC, reserve requirements of 2 power points or higher are not uncommon, and the Inner Strength would have to be taken as one of the 7 character feats.

Finally, even with the Talented Feat, a wild talent under my system will have at most two level-zero powers that he can manifest as first level only - no matter what his character or class level may be.

Upshot is this - any Wild Talent who want access to powers must spend at least 2 (of 7) feats to cast 0-level powers a few times a day. To just acquire access to a non-Wild Talent feat takes at least one additional feat, and if it has reserve requirements will often take more.

Basically, as a half-way point between fully trained psions and psychic warriors, access to 0-level powers and psionic feats seemed about right. And the house rules were relatively unobtrusive.

Now, I could easily have missed a low-req overpowered psionic feat - can you think of any?
 

Jarval

Explorer
Re: Re: You beat me to it Wolf

GuardianLurker said:
Now, I could easily have missed a low-req overpowered psionic feat - can you think of any?

There are a couple:

Inertial Armor: For two feats (your wild talent plus Inertial Armor) any character can have a permanent +4 armor bonus to AC as long as they keep 1 PP. I could see this being rather popular amongst wizards, sorcerers and rogues. This is less of an issue with Psions as they don't suffer a spell failure chance from wearing armor.

For fighters there is the Stand Still feat. Plus the useful-for-everyone Speed of Thought.

Now, when applied to a psionic class, I don't see these feats as unbalancing. But when taken by other classes I can see problems occurring.
 

GuardianLurker

Adventurer
Re: Re: Re: You beat me to it Wolf

Jarval said:

Inertial Armor: For two feats (your wild talent plus Inertial Armor) any character can have a permanent +4 armor bonus to AC as long as they keep 1 PP. I could see this being rather popular amongst wizards, sorcerers and rogues. This is less of an issue with Psions as they don't suffer a spell failure chance from wearing armor.
As long as the wild talent feat is "Inner Strength" you're right. Of course, your comment about Psions in armor applies to rogues as well as the equivalent armor check penalty is fairly low. As for wizards and sorcerors - well, yes it does allow them the benefit of a permanent mage armor at the cost of two feats. Mage armor typically lasts for hours, usually for more than long enough for all practical purposes. Essentially, the trade off is two feats for one spell a day, which is probably about right. Then, of course, there's always the advisability of having a feat duplicate the effects of a spell permanently, which is really the main problem with Inertial Armor anyway.

IOW, IMO Inertial Armor is unbalanced with or without my Wild Talent house rule. Not that I've gotten rid of it, mind you - I don't mind giving my PCs a little extra protection, because they'll need it anyway. :)


For fighters there is the Stand Still feat. Plus the useful-for-everyone Speed of Thought.

Now, when applied to a psionic class, I don't see these feats as unbalancing. But when taken by other classes I can see problems occurring.
Is Stand Still worth a two-feat chain? How about Speed-of-Thought? In your opinion are both of these must-have feats either as a single feat, or at the end of the two-feat chain?

And how does a psionic class substantially alter the balance point for a feat? Is it because the classes are rarer? Or are the basic psionic classes actually underpowered?
 

Ravellion

serves Gnome Master
Re: Re: Re: Re: You beat me to it Wolf

GuardianLurker said:
And how does a psionic class substantially alter the balance point for a feat? Is it because the classes are rarer? Or are the basic psionic classes actually underpowered?

Part of the balance of a psionic character is the option of taking psionic feats, yes. Look in the sidebar of the Psionic Handbooks Feat chapter.


Rav
 

Wolf72

Explorer
IIRC (to lazy to walk across the room and actually pick up my books) ...

psionic feats are fairly powerful, the option to take them instead of regular feats is a pretty big +
 

GuardianLurker

Adventurer
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You beat me to it Wolf

Rav said:

Part of the balance of a psionic character is the option of taking psionic feats, yes. Look in the sidebar of the Psionic Handbooks Feat chapter.

I wish I could. My PsiHB is at the bottom of a moving box right now. But I don't doubt you.

I do, however, wonder about this. A "Wild Talent", by definition, is a psionic character, albeit one with no training and a few powers or abilities, with those abilities mostly arising without conscious control or direction.

For me, this would seem to suggest that Wild Talents are better represented by primarily allowing them access to Feats, where the same psionic potential can be expressed in a number of subtle ways, rather than by giving them access to powers, which have always seemed to require concious control and growth in my mind. And while I don't dispute the additional power inherent in the psionic feats, I have always regarded the Psionic powers as being the primary resource of the psionic classes.

Wolf's and Jarval's "Wild Talents" take an almost diametrically opposed approach, granting Wild Talents access to powers but not feats.

Given that a "Wild Talent" houserule must, of necessity, deprive the psionic classes of some of their uniqueness by allowing an otherwise non-psionic character access to one or more of psionic skills, psionic powers, psionic feats, or psionic combat modes, and also (of necessity) increase the utility of the non-psionic character by granting him access to abiltiies he would not otherwise have, what abilities can we give a "Wild Talent" that minimize both the decrease and the increase?

Alternatively, which grants the most "power" to the psionic classes? Access to psionic powers? Access to psionic feats? To psionic skills? To psionic combat modes? Which of those can be developed innately, without training or guidance? And how much of a detriment is removing a non-psionic's "buffer"?
 

Tome

Explorer
Hmmmmm. . . .

GuardianLurker said:


I do, however, wonder about this. A "Wild Talent", by definition, is a psionic character, albeit one with no training and a few powers or abilities, with those abilities mostly arising without conscious control or direction.

For me, this would seem to suggest that Wild Talents are better represented by primarily allowing them access to Feats, where the same psionic potential can be expressed in a number of subtle ways, rather than by giving them access to powers, which have always seemed to require concious control and growth in my mind. And while I don't dispute the additional power inherent in the psionic feats, I have always regarded the Psionic powers as being the primary resource of the psionic classes.

I agree whole heartedly. My wild talent feat, though weak allows access to psionic feats for just that reason. A feat is, to me something inate that you are good at naturally rather than a learned response. Psionic Wild Talents should have access to psi-feats. Since those feats only come along once every 3 levels, it will not prove to be unbalancing.

Given that a "Wild Talent" houserule must, of necessity, deprive the psionic classes of some of their uniqueness by allowing an otherwise non-psionic character access to one or more of psionic skills, psionic powers, psionic feats, or psionic combat modes, and also (of necessity) increase the utility of the non-psionic character by granting him access to abiltiies he would not otherwise have, what abilities can we give a "Wild Talent" that minimize both the decrease and the increase?

The power of a psychic character comes from his ability to manifest powers at will and to participate in psychic combat.

Psions and Psi Warriors have a relatively small selection of powers to choose from, so giving a wild talent access to more than one or two would undermine psychic character classes.

Wild Talents should not gain access to psychic combat because it requires too much focused psychic energy. Wild talents simply don't have the mental discipline or training (let alone mental strength) to engage in psionic combat. With 1 or 2 PP a wild talent would be brain fried in a matter of rounds against a skilled psion in psionic combat. For this reason I propose that Wild talents retain most of their non-psionic bonus to saves. For every psionic feat a non-psionic character takes his non-psionic buffer is reduced by 2 to represent the character becomming more sensitive to psychic energy. Sure, a monk can take Wild Talent, Psionic Fist, and Inertial Armor; but he's sure goning to be hurting when he goes up against an illithid who gets initiative over him with a mind blast. Additionally, psionic feats require PP. With low PP the monk wild talent above can either retain the Inertial Armor, do and extra D4 damage, or manifest their Talent.

Like Attack and Defense modes, I believe that wild talents should not have access to the psionic only skills. Skills require training and instruction. Wild talents do not receive such training, and therefore should not have special access to the skills.

If a character takes too many psionic feats, just throw in more psionic monsters. Allow wild talents to be infected by psionic diseases. Throw in a mindstorm or two. I'm sure that the constant stunning attacks, loss of control and other maladies will convince your Wild Talent that he should multiclass into a psychic character class just to beef up his defenses against all of the nasty things that he can now see with his heightened sensitivity.

All that being said, I believe that Wild Talents are very cool. It is a great way to introduce psionic powers into your campaign without overloading the system. Wild talents who like what they see can multiclass into psions or psi-warriors after a level or two if they like, and still have 1 or more extra PP and powers to show for the investment of a feat. That's more than a straight Psion or Psi-Warrior would have by standard progression, so the feat is not wasted if the character takes a psionic class.
 

GuardianLurker

Adventurer
Re: Hmmmmm. . . .

Psionic Skills are inappropriate for Wild Talents. Check.
Psionic Combat Modes are inappropriate. Maybe (see below).
Psionic Powers should be limited to one or two at most. Check.
Psionic Feats should be the main benefit for Wild Talents. Check.

OK, now that we've agreed, all we have to do is convince the others. :)

Tome said:

Wild Talents should not gain access to psychic combat because it requires too much focused psychic energy.
<snip>
For every psionic feat a non-psionic character takes his non-psionic buffer is reduced by 2 to represent the character becomming more sensitive to psychic energy.
I don't know. Wild Talents used to get one psionic defense mode (Mind Blank?), and no attack modes. This may not be a bad thing to carry over, especially if the "buffer" is removed. A Wild Talent with a few PP and a really sucky defense mode isn't going to be much of a challenge for a Mind Flayer, but he might manage to last long enough to run away.

A two point/feat reduction seems awfully steep, especially since almost any Wild Talent would start with a 4 point reduction.
 

Tome

Explorer
Re: Re: Hmmmmm. . . .

GuardianLurker said:
A two point/feat reduction seems awfully steep, especially since almost any Wild Talent would start with a 4 point reduction.

<SNIP>
I just lost my response. . . .
<GRRRRRR>

I agree that a negative 2 penalty is pretty high, but without such a barrier you would have uber characters with 4+ psionic feats and perhaps even more power than a low level psychic character.

Using a -1 penalty in stead of a -2 penalty a 6th level human fighter can take 4 psionic feats and still have a +4 non-psionic buffer and his bonus fighter feats to excel in combat. Where is the incentive to become a Psychic Warrior then?

Perhaps the penalty can work like the Inner Strength feat. Every psionic feat a character takes, the non-psionic buffer is reduced by 1 + the value of the last reduction. See Below:

1 Feat = -1 Buffer
2 Feats = -2 Buffer (-3 total)
3 Feats = -3 Buffer (-6 Total)
4 Feats = No Buffer, Takes ability damage instead of stun

Evil, yes . . . .But it prevents abuse of the system.
 

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