Psion vs. Cerebremancer vs. Psion Uncarnate

[wildstarsreach]

Ah, but with a single 9th level spell, they achieve what would take 2-4 of your own spells in a single action, and with higher save DCs too. Wail of the Banshee, at minimum, trumps Finger of Death any day, capable of slaying a maximum of 17 creatures, but more realisticly about 5-6 under optimal conditions. Shapechange is unmatched for versatility, gaining more power with each and every book with a monster in it, even with Polymorph errata.

Heck let's scale back to 8th level... Maze, with it's no save get-out-of-the-way powers, are excellent for shucking aside Clerical types, which typically don't have high Intelligence scores. Irresistable Dance, delivered with a Project Image, easily renders even the toughest of enemies useless. Discern Location, which is only trumped by Metafaculty. Mind Blank for the front lines, Dimensional Lock against teleport-happy opponents, Prismatic Wall for an obstacle that doesn't disappear with the first Disintegrate or Greater Dispel Magic.

I can go on, especially if we move outside of Core.

Your points are good, at 16th or 17th level he lacks that awesome 9th level abilities but I found that having essetially 2 classes with access for 7th level abilities overall gave the edge. Go to 20th level with having chosen one of the classes to excel in and the Cerebremancer exceeds the straight Wizard or Psion. My character went the Psion Route since we already had a straight wizard.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Ah, but with a single 9th level spell, they achieve what would take 2-4 of your own spells in a single action, and with higher save DCs too. Wail of the Banshee, at minimum, trumps Finger of Death any day, capable of slaying a maximum of 17 creatures, but more realisticly about 5-6 under optimal conditions. Shapechange is unmatched for versatility, gaining more power with each and every book with a monster in it, even with Polymorph errata.

Heck let's scale back to 8th level... Maze, with it's no save get-out-of-the-way powers, are excellent for shucking aside Clerical types, which typically don't have high Intelligence scores. Irresistable Dance, delivered with a Project Image, easily renders even the toughest of enemies useless. Discern Location, which is only trumped by Metafaculty. Mind Blank for the front lines, Dimensional Lock against teleport-happy opponents, Prismatic Wall for an obstacle that doesn't disappear with the first Disintegrate or Greater Dispel Magic.

I can go on, especially if we move outside of Core.

There is another thing, Temporal Acceleration, is gotten at 6th level whereas Time Stop is at 9th. You might have 1, maybe 2 with an average of 3.5 rounds but you get 2 rounds per use to as many as you need with the psion abilities.

 

[Asmor]

Well, I'm basically done with my character. In the end, I decided to go with Psion Uncarnate after all because, frankly, I don't really need that many psionic feats and the practiced manifester makes up for missing 9th level powers just fine, since an augmented first level power might as well be a 9th level power... Still need to pick out powers, but otherwise I'm good. I actually have 3 exalted feats left over that I just couldn't spend... Almost all of the exalted feats are keyed to some class ability or another, and none of them enhance psionics. :/ I could have taken word of creation or the golden ice one, but I think I'll be fine without them.

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone!

 

[Solarious]

First, you can edit your posts instead of double posting, wildstarsearch. Especially if you're quoting the exact same post.

Second, a dual caster has to have it's advantages, or there would be no point to playing one in the first place. Your arguement on Temporal Acceleration is irrelevant, because the equivilant Psion would be also able to acomplish that with ease. We aren't arguing the benefits of manifesting against spellcasting, we're arguing straight spellcasting/manifesting against dual casting/manifesting. Besides, Temporal Acceleration is 2 rounds of actions for 6th level worth of equivilant power points => spell slot comparison, 3 rounds for an 8th level slot, and a '10th' level slot for 4 rounds, which is close to Time Stop's average number of rounds. Of course, Time Stop can be Extended with a metamagic rod (which incedentally can be used 2 more times later on down the road), while you'll need a feat and blow your psionic focus to do the same with Temporal Acceleration.

Of course, you're going to have to split your feats between improving manifesting and spellcasting as a Cerebemancer, while a focused class can specialize. Psionics rules simply add to the pain because you -need- Psionic Meditation in order to metapsionic effectively, and then any metapsionic feats afterwards. And any metamagics you wanted. And you still need Expanded Knowledge for the best powers in the discipline lists. Oh, and you also need Practiced Manifester/Spellcaster to reduce the pain of ML/CL loss. A straight Psion/Wizard/Sorceror/Cleric/Druid doesn't have this problem, and Wizards even picks up bonus feats (as long as they don't PrC). I note that you don't have a single metapsionic or metamagic. Not a one.

And there are plenty of sources out there that can jack up a spell until it makes even blasting spells seem like save-or-dies... or in some instances, there is no save. Against the important part of the spell anyways. To demonstrate, I shall quote someone who has more experience with effective metamagicing than I...

How about Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire) + Empower Spell + Searing Spell + Enervate Spell. That's four feats, 1 of which is very specific, but 4 of which are useful almost all spells.

With all of those metamagic feats (and arcane thesis) our spell still only occupies a 6th level slot. It deals half damage to any creature with fire immunity or any non-living creature. It deals +100% damage to any living creature with anything but fire immunity (ignores all resistance).

Overall it deals 30d6 damage to a living target, that's 104 damage on average, comparable to your fighter. It only requires a touch attack and has no save (for the damage), no SR, and on a failed save it dazes the target. The Daze effect is key, because that takes out the target for a round allowing the other party members to beat on him without fear of consequences. Even better is the fact that if conjured outside an Antimagic Field, it can still affect targets with in an anti-magic field because instantaneous conjurations function within an antimagic field.

Sure you can't go around throwing these things all day long, but you can chuck quite a few of them. If you're still itching to deal damage, you can add another feat: arcane thesis (fireball) and mix in the standards: searing spell, empower spell, and enervate spell. Since fireball is of third level, you can use use it in conjunction with spell matrix. If we use a 9th level spell matrix (greater) and 3 such fireballs we can now blast 4 such fire balls in a round. That's 80d6 fire damage (40d6 fire to creatures immune to fire & full damage to resistant targets). 80d6 (average 280) fire damage to all targets in a 20 foot radius at long range. Sure it depletes a lot of your resources (1 9th level slot, 4 fifth level slots) but you can pretty much wipe out an opposing army in a single swift + standard action.

A 20th level mage could probably preform this nova tactic 4/day. Given that the standard number of encounters per day is around 4, that's not too bad.

A dual class caster/manifester like a Cerebremancer can't do something like this as reliably, or as often, because you not only loose spell slots with which to do this, you also lack the higher level slots that make it possible. Or, you burn through your spells/PPs too quickly and then function at as a lower level spellcaster/manifester for the rest of the day. Minus the feats that you invested into whichever nova tactic you perfer.

Also, as a virtual 17th level Psion, you only have a single 9th level power, whereas the straight Psion gets 6. That's a lot of high level powers to give up.

For what it's worth, I don't think Practiced Manifester, as written in the Complete Psionics, is legitimate. If you read the wording carefully, it is a clear cut-and-paste job of Practiced Spellcaster. Which means that Practiced Manifester was written without Psionics rules and it's nusances that makes it stand apart from traditional Vancian spellcasting. It's balance is questionable, and leaves questions hanging: for example, the feat says it does not increase the number of PPs you gain, then says that it increases manifester levels for all other purposes. But the bonus PPs you gain from high Intelligence is based on manifester levels... so which is it?

 

[wildstarsreach]

Well, I'm basically done with my character. In the end, I decided to go with Psion Uncarnate after all because, frankly, I don't really need that many psionic feats and the practiced manifester makes up for missing 9th level powers just fine, since an augmented first level power might as well be a 9th level power... Still need to pick out powers, but otherwise I'm good. I actually have 3 exalted feats left over that I just couldn't spend... Almost all of the exalted feats are keyed to some class ability or another, and none of them enhance psionics. :/ I could have taken word of creation or the golden ice one, but I think I'll be fine without them.

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone!

You need to read the Magic of Ebberon. To have a Psiforge, you have to take the feat at first level, Psiforge body. Taking Mithril body won't allow you to be a psion.

 

[Asmor]

You need to read the Magic of Ebberon. To have a Psiforge, you have to take the feat at first level, Psiforge body. Taking Mithril body won't allow you to be a psion.

Psiforged body seems pretty crappy, and I see no reason that a warforged couldn't be a psion in the first place, unless it's hidden in some minutiae.

 

[wildstarsreach]

For what it's worth, I don't think Practiced Manifester, as written in the Complete Psionics, is legitimate. If you read the wording carefully, it is a clear cut-and-paste job of Practiced Spellcaster. Which means that Practiced Manifester was written without Psionics rules and it's nusances that makes it stand apart from traditional Vancian spellcasting. It's balance is questionable, and leaves questions hanging: for example, the feat says it does not increase the number of PPs you gain, then says that it increases manifester levels for all other purposes. But the bonus PPs you gain from high Intelligence is based on manifester levels... so which is it?

I gained PP's both at the actual level and not the enhanced level. Getting to spend PP equal to your enhanced level is the biggest benefit and is worth taking for only this. If you are a 13th level manifester, you can only use 13 PP's per use of power. The Practiced Manifester's biggest benefit is if you are 17th level with 4 levels in something else, whatever that is, you can now spend 17 PP's at maximum with enhancements.

Good or bad I would take this character over an uncarnate or other. When I play a psion in the Future, I plan to play him without a PrC.

This was my character for our campaign finale. I didn't print the spell book again.

Jadenian Hallistar 20th level
Psion Tele 7(17), Wiz 3(13), Cerebremancer 10, Level 1, 3 & 5 Kalashtar Tele replace lvl
XP 196965
Align: NG Race: Medium male humanoid (Kalashtar)
Init: +1/3 Senses Spot: +9 Search: +15 Listen: +6
Languages: Common, Quori, Riedran, Daan, Draconic, Orcish, Goblinoid
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AC: 21 Touch: 21 Flat-footed: 18 (20% miss chance)
HP: 111 (20 HD) +100
Fort: +13 (+1) Ref: +13 (+1) Will: +20 (+22 vs. mind) (+1 DP Feat)
SR (2 ch used) 20 (18) Special protection vs. death, ect from scarab
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Speed: 30 ft. (45)
Melee: +9 with Staff 1d6 (5)
Ranged: +2 Lt crossbow +15 (1d8+3) (10), RT +13 < 30’, Ranged +12 > 30’
Base Attack: +9/+4; Grapple +8
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contingency Body Adjustment (9d12) (@ less then 0 HP)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scrolls:
1) Spell Vulnerability @ 9th level 2) Greater T-port x2 @ 18th lvl, 4xMM @ 9th lvl
3) Scroll of Stone to Flesh @ 11th lvl, Unluck @18th lvl 4) Spell Vulnerability @ 18th level

Psionic Powers (ML 20th, PP 355) DC 20/ (22 for telp*) + pwr/lvl + aug Pts Spent:
9th (17) – Assimilate (DC 29, 70/105)
8th (15) – Greater Psionic Teleport (+6 people), Mind Blank, Planar Embrace
7th (13) - Energy Wave DC 27-31 #, Evade Burst, Energy Conversion
6th (11) – Disintegrate DC 26 (75/20\110/30 or 140/20\200/30), Mindswitch DC 27-32, Temporal Acceleration, Contingency
5th (9) – Psychic Crush* DC 26 (-1 hp or 30/45), Adapt Body, Mind probe* DC 26, Tower of Iron Will*, Celestial Conduit (DC 36, 70/100)
4th (7) – Dimension Door, Psychic Reformation, Schism*, Modify Memory* DC 26
3rd (5) – Body Adjust, Hostile Empathic Transfer* DC 24, Psionic Blast* DC 24, Stun Quori Spirit* DC 23-30
2nd (3) - Read Thoughts* DC 24, Levitate, Biofeedback
1st (1) – Energy Ray #, Entangling Ectoplasm, Force Screen * (+8 Defl bonus for 17 pts), Mind Link* (race 4/day free or cost), Mind Thrust* DC 22-33 (110/150), Psionic Charm* DC 23-34, Vigor (up to +100/135), Inertial Armor (+13 armor bonus for 19 pts)
#=“Cold 90/120, Fire 90/120, Electricity 70/95, Sonic 60/80” at full 20/18+2 PP
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Spell Prepared: CL 17th
Spells memorized and Bonus Spells: (3x1st, 3x2nd, 2x3rd, 2x4th, 2x5th, 2x6th, 1x7th, 1x8th, 1x9th)
DC 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
20/21 20/22 20/23 20/24 20/25 20/26 20/27 20/28 20/29
2x7th – Limited Wish, Delayed Blast Fireball
4x6th – Fire Spiders, Mordy’s Lucubration x2, Repulsion
5x5th – Mass Fly, Greater Blink, Wall of Stone, Cone of Cold, Teleport
6x4th – Greater Invisibility, Orb of Acid, Stoneskin, Orb of Force, Orb of Electricity, Assay of Spell Resistance
6x3rd - Bands of Steel, Dispel Magic, Spell Vuln, Resonating Bolt, Fireball, Lightning Bolt
7x2nd – Scorching Ray x2, Phantasmal Assailants, Mirror Image, Body of the Sun, Knock, Protection From Arrows
7x1st – Magic missile x4, Enlarge Person, Shield, Shocking Grasp
4x0th – Detect Magic x3, Read Magic

Abilities: Str 10, Dex 12 (16), Con 16, Int 24 (30), Wis 12, Chr 13 (19)
Action Points: 15 () + Temp (up to 13 () a day if under prophetic favor, one at a time)
Special Qualities: +2 race/saves vs mind affecting spells, +2 race bonus on Bluff, Diplo and Intim, Immune dream and nightmare spells, Mind link 4/day, 1 extra PP/level, -1 to all str based checks, Divine boon: Comp Lang 1/day @ 20th level, Perm See Invisibility
Feats: Summon Fam, Tele Talent, Psicrystal Affinity, Point Blank Shot, Empower, Precise Shot, Scribe Scroll (15421 Craft Points), Practiced Spellcaster, Dragon Proph (13xday, dur 19 rds), Alertness, Compound Psicrystal, Proph Hero, Practiced Manifester, Psionic Meditation, Psionic Luck

Skills (210): Auto Hypno (8) +10, Bluff (5) +11, Conc (23) +26, Dipl (16) +24, Intm (1) +9, Know (Arcana) (23) +33, Know (Dungeoneering) (11) +21, Know (History) (1)+11, Know (Psicraft) (23) +35, Know (Psionics) (23) +35, Know (Planar) (14) +25, Know (Religion) (17) +27, Know (Nobility & Royalty) (3) +13, Know (Local area) (3) +13, Lang (2, Orcish, Goblinoid), Listen (4) +6 PC, Move Silently (4) +8 PC, Search (5) +15 PC, Sense Motive (3) +3 PC (Sympathetic), Sleight of Hand (2) +6, Spellcraft (19) +31, Spot (7) +9 (PC Observant), Survival (2_1) +1, Use Psi Device (8) +10

Familiar & Psicrystal (PC):
PC: Str 1 Int 13, Wis 10, Dex 14, Con --, Chr 10, powers per book, has 2 personalities (Sympathetic and Observant) HP 55 AC 19, Touch 15 FF 15
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Possessions:
Minor Cloak of Displacement, Heward’s Handy haversack, Psionatrix of Telepathy, Ring of Protection +3, Light Crossbow +2, Boccob’s Blessed Book, Circlet of Intelligence +6, Gloves of Dexterity +4, Metamagic Rod of Enlarge Spell, Metamagic Rod of Empower Spell, Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize Spell, Wand of Magic Missiles CL 5 (41ch), Pearl of Power 1st lvl, Boots of Skating, Scarab of Protection, Portable Hole, White Robe of the Archmagi, Ring of Charisma +6, Ring of Three Wishes (+1 Chr, +2 Wis) (Dragotha Bonus +2 Con) (518780 total)

 

[moritheil]

Cerebremancer is vastly better with Elan than with Human.

 

[Wolfwood2]

You need to read the Magic of Ebberon. To have a Psiforge, you have to take the feat at first level, Psiforge body. Taking Mithril body won't allow you to be a psion.

Nonsense. Warforged can take any class, even psionic ones, just like all the other Eberron races. Psiforge body may make them better at it, but it's not mandatory.

 

[Bacris]

You need to read the Magic of Ebberon. To have a Psiforge, you have to take the feat at first level, Psiforge body. Taking Mithril body won't allow you to be a psion.

Base classes have no prerequisites, feats or otherwise, warforged or not, with the exception of Paragon classes, where you have to be that race...