Psionic at-will scaling

[DracoSuave]

Items as well.

It seems like they can't keep it up, but they really do have a lot of power point longevity outside of heroic tier.

And the higher level at-wills are just plain better than the heroic ones.

Let's look at Concussive Detonation, close blast 3 vs Reflex, psion 27

unaug: 1d8+int force, slowed
aug 2: 2d8+int force, vuln to force (which is most of your stuff if you're TK psi)
aug 6: 2d8+int force, stun

Contrast that with the closest power, Force Hammer, area burst 1 vs Reflex

unaug: 1d6+int force, slowed
aug 1: 1d6+int force, slowed, can't shift
aug 2: 1d8+int force, proned.



Sure, you COULD take a low level power, and spam the aug 2 version of it, OR you could do the smart thing, take a high level power, and spam the aug 2 version of -that- which generally does more damage and has a better effect.

Unless you really like those aug 1 versions... which are intentionally narrow and incredibly situational.

tl;dr:

With Augmentable powers, the epic tier augment 2 versions of their at-wills are better then the augment 2 versions of heroic at-wills. And augment 1 powers are too narrow to be considered great utility. If you're going to be spamming 2 power points a turn, you might as well be spamming the best powers those 2 points can buy.

 

[Obryn]

That's at epic, though. At paragon it's not nearly so clear.

-O

 

[DracoSuave]

You're not the only one perplexed by psionics.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/273643-i-admit-i-dont-get-d-d-4th-edition-psionics.html

The end result: Psionics are a neat concept, but possibly flawed in execution. The biggest issue, IMO, is that (particularly for Ardents and Psions), their Level 1 At-Wills are better than any other At-Wills through Epic. For the Ardent, you really can't beat Demoralizing Strike, Energizing Strike, Focusing Strike, or Ire Strike. And by that, I mean, not until very high levels - and maybe not even then, given how augmentation costs scale.

-O

Mindlink Strike (7) is -way- better than Ire Strike (1). And Relevatory Slash (23) is way better than that.

You'll find a few chains of improvement like that.

Assuming you're upgrading your lowest power, you should have:

1,1 at level 1
1,1,3 at level 3
1,3,7 at level 7

It isn't until level 13 that you'd obstensibly replace level 1 powers, but these are at-wills anyways.

At level 13, you have Confusing Strike (which is good), Field of Alacrity, and so on.


One misconception with Augmentables is that you need a complete set of a certain utility through every possible level, which isn't true.

Take a cleric. A cleric is specialized in healing, so you need a healing power available for every encounter power slot, two because of the two different builds. Why? Because that cleric expends his encounter powers. Once he uses that encounter power that heals, it's gone for the rest of the encounter.

Not so with the ardent. How many at-wills does he need with a healing augment? 1. If he uses that, it is not expended. He can do so again so long as he has power points.

As a result, the ardent doesn't -require- healing utility in every level. What the ardent needs is healing utility of different types, and really 'spend a healing surge' can only be done so many ways.

Let's say you're an ardent based around forcing enemies to smack their friends (which is a theme of many of their powers). How many of those powers do you -need-? 1.

Instead, what you have with these classes is depth. You have battleminds with Brutal Barrage, an at-will I could never fathom them printing for any other class. Ardents with a warlock daily as an at-will power. And so on.

There's a LOT of potential in those higher level powers, and unlike most other classes, you get three to choose from. And some of those higher level powers are encounter or daily powers for other classes. I would not dismiss them so easily.



In other news, a shardmind psychic psion intrigues me for damage potential.

 

[Obryn]

Mindlink Strike (7) is -way- better than Ire Strike (1). And Relevatory Slash (23) is way better than that.

I pretty much disagree with the first part. At best, I see them as equivalent, each useful under different circumstances. Persoally, I'd lean towards Ire Strike before Mindlink Strike. Regardless, though, the real beauties at Level 1 are Disheartening Strike and Energizing Strike, IMO. There's nothing comparable through Paragon. And no, you don't need overlapping powers, but at what they do, these two powers scale very well with level and are useful through Epic. (I mean, Disheartening Strike at Augment 2 is a Close Burst 1 that gives penalties to all defenses equal to 1+mod...)

The only class that I think shows clear advancement is the Battlemind.

-O

 

[DracoSuave]

I pretty much disagree with the first part. At best, I see them as equivalent, each useful under different circumstances. Persoally, I'd lean towards Ire Strike before Mindlink Strike. Regardless, though, the real beauties at Level 1 are Disheartening Strike and Energizing Strike, IMO. There's nothing comparable through Paragon. And no, you don't need overlapping powers, but at what they do, these two powers scale very well with level and are useful through Epic. (I mean, Disheartening Strike at Augment 2 is a Close Burst 1 that gives penalties to all defenses equal to 1+mod...)

The only class that I think shows clear advancement is the Battlemind.

-O

It depends on what you look for.

Vulnerability 2 IS nice, but the aug 1 absolutely sucks unless you have some specificly built characters.

You and another guy shifting, on the other hand, means -somebody- out there is gonna get combat advantage. Could be the buddy shifting. Could be a rogue. Could be the buddy shifting, the rogue, and the avenger. combat advantage and shifting > vulnerability 2. And it's aug 1's situation is 'you have a defender or the ardent power that marks targets for them.' -That- situation is far more common.

Even then... let's say Level 1 is better for you because you have a lot of psychic damage in the party, so level 7 is not so desirable.

Well... that's actually a good thing. It means that you have multiple tools that can fulfill the role of "Commander's Strike But Different", and you can pick the -exact- tool that fits that purpose. That's not a bad thing for a Leader (or Controller) class where flexibility is far more desirable in choosing your tools than raw damage. Strikers want damage. Leaders and Controllers want tools.

 

[Obryn]

It depends on what you look for.

While I agree that there'd be zero reason to take both, I think that the Aug 1 of Mindlink Strike is rather poor, overall. I don't think that I'd ever spend an encounter-based resource to maybe get an extra 3 damage. I might use the Aug 1 of Ire Strike - but it's situational and largely based on party composition.

The Aug 2 of Ire Strike gives a 5-square shift, extra damage, AND level-scaling vulnerability. It's a solid Encounter power.

The Aug 2 of Mindlink Strike is, actually, completely broken and nonsensical. It needs an update, because right now it seems to require an attack roll which is missing.

-O

 

[DracoSuave]

The Aug 2 of Mindlink Strike is, actually, completely broken and nonsensical. It needs an update, because right now it seems to require an attack roll which is missing.

-O

I'm pretty sure the errata to this will be:

Attack: Charisma vs Ac.

No wager needed on that one, I don't think!

Also, it doesn't have an Effect line, which means it doesn't overright the initial effect.

So, it's...

Close Burst 1
Target: Each Enemy you see in burst
Effect: One ally adjacent to you makes a MBA, on a hit, you and the ally shift as a free action.
Attack: Charisma vs AC
Hit: 1[W] + Cha mod dmg, and one ally adjacent to the target can make an MBA against it as an OAction.

That's almost daily level of powah.

 

[Obryn]

I'm pretty sure the errata to this will be:

Attack: Constitution vs Ac.

No wager needed on that one, I don't think!

In this case, I think it would be an overall upgrade, but barely. The double attack mojo just edges out a long shift + extra damage + scaling vulnerability as long as your party is arranged right for it. But since Ire Strike allows your ally to shift quite a good distance at Aug 2, and because scaling vulnerability is awesome, it's far from a knockout blow.

But like I said, my concern is a lot more with Disheartening Strike and Energizing Strike, both of which are insane. (I love Focusing Strike, too, but that one does have a clear upgrade path.)

-O

 

[DracoSuave]

In this case, I think it would be an overall upgrade, but barely. The double attack mojo just edges out a long shift + extra damage + scaling vulnerability as long as your party is arranged right for it. But since Ire Strike allows your ally to shift quite a good distance at Aug 2, and because scaling vulnerability is awesome, it's far from a knockout blow.

But like I said, my concern is a lot more with Disheartening Strike and Energizing Strike, both of which are insane. (I love Focusing Strike, too, but that one does have a clear upgrade path.)

-O

But it's not that.

It's:

Every enemy adjacent to you (close burst 1) that an ally adjacent to you can hit with an MBA gets MBA'd. Then each hit allows shifts.

Then as a close burst 1, you 1[W]+Cha, and each time you hit with that, an ally pummels an enemy with an MBA.

Let's look at it more realisticly:

. . . . .
. . . P .
. . D . .
. O 1 2 .
. . . . .

D is me, the Ardent, playing 'DracoSuave the Arguer of Champions.' You're O, and you're the Avenger, and we'll call you Obryn Sir Hitsalot. P is a Polearm using Fighter who likes teh long pole and doesn't afraid of anything. We'll call him Master Chief. The 1 and 2s are obviously snotty orcs who must die to our wrath.

First: Both enemies are targetted by the effect. I elect Master Chief to attack 2, and Obryn Sir Hitsalot to attack 1. You both hit because you're awesome guys. Maybe Master Chief is an elf. But whatever. You both get to shift one, and I'm shifting 2.

2 free melee basic attacks from heavy hitters for an encounter power is already good enough to make it useful.

But wait. There's more.

. . . . .
. . . . .
. . O . P
. . 1 2 .
. . D . .

Now I get -my- attacks. Now I'm attacking both, but no combat advantage but that's okay cause I'm a tough dude.

Every time I hit, it's 1[W] + stuff, AND somebody's getting another attack. Probably you cause you do more damage. Say thank you. But I might decide Master Chief does, cause of the flanking.

The power is a LOT more complex than it appears at first glance. It's 2 attacks per enemy with a chance at a third... in a burst 1. That's NOT bad for a melee leader to do.

Even if there WAS no shifting, it's still a nasty piece of work going on there.

Shift 5 + 1d8 damage... isn't even on the same -level-.

 

[Obryn]

I see what you're saying. So, good - Mindlink Strike is an improvement, assuming it works how we're expecting.

We still have the other two powers.

-O