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5E Psionics in Tasha

Yes, a sorcerer with psion theme is what psions are in this edition. You're rejecting this approach without having seen the rules because it is not called 'psion'. You're irrationally fixated on the nomenclature.
You're right. In fact, now that I think of it, I could pick any class I like and call it "Psion", and hocus pocus, I'll have a Psion class I like.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yes, a sorcerer with psion theme is what psions are in this edition. You're rejecting this approach without having seen the rules because it is not called 'psion'. You're irrationally fixated on the nomenclature.
Or else not. A Psion is not a Sorcerer and is more than just a name. We're fixated on an actual Psion and not a cheap substitute.
 

You're right. In fact, now that I think of it, I could pick any class I like and call it "Psion", and hocus pocus, I'll have a Psion class I like.

That is a very heathy approach. :)

I really would liked to have seen the (the balanced) mystic in the game.

I have now encountered a cool concept for the warlord I would subscribe to (The one that just uses superiority dice as a base class, not a subclass feature, so the battle master retroactively becomes the "eldritch knight" style multiclass light of them...

So I think those 3 subclasses and especially the psionic sorcerer are a good start. The psionic sorcerer, if they resemble the UA variant closely could be the psi multiclass light variant.
If you already have psionic powers established (in 5e they are called spells, because... and actually powers of (2e skills and powers) were just spells by a different name that could be upcast with psi points) you could build a class that has those powers on their list exclusively. You can probably do away with spell slots alltogether and give psi points that recharge on a short rest and solely fuel those spells. Establish a rate of trade akin to sorcery points. Now give them psionic class features and you can have a psion class, that plays well with everything else.
 

Or else not. A Psion is not a Sorcerer and is more than just a name. We're fixated on an actual Psion and not a cheap substitute.

Now you are in the same boat as the warlord lovers. Look my post above for my solution. Maybe just do it yourself, because otherwise you probably wait for another 5 years.
 



Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
For me the points are used wrong in sorcerers.

To me, sorcerer spend sorcery points on metamagic to modify spells and activate special features.

Whereas psions spend psionic points directly into their powers into augments listed on them.

It's a subtle but important difference.
 

The easiest example might be someone like Fitzchivalry Farseer, but honestly, an awful lot of "romantic fantasy" (i.e. the "Blue Rose" genre) has "magic" which is basically psionics, rather than vice-versa (i.e. it's all telepathy, empathy, telekinesis, mind-battles and so on, not rituals, fireballs, magic traps and so on).

In general in fantasy literature, a pretty significant proportion of characters who wield "magic" or some kind of supernatural power are using something which in previous editions been "psionics", and which worked in a very different way to D&D's flashy, big-effect-oriented slot magic.

I think the issue is that I come from a fantasy-literature background, and I'm interested in characters who have abilities like that, more than ones with flashy BOOM-spell abilities - those have their charm too but it's a different charm.

Warlocks are cool but they're extremely specific. They can't be reskinned as a psionic caster without both rules revisions and a sort of incredibly elaborate re-skinning. You'd want more in the way of cantrips, completely change out the warlock-ability-things for psionic ones, get rid of the whole mechanical bit to do with the patron, and use that design-room to give you the ability to use some kind of spell-point-based system for low-level spells or something maybe. I don't think it would really work out well.
I actually agree with this. I wish there was more focus on subtle, non-flashy magic. But this really doesn't depend on psionics rules being distinct, there being bespoke psion class or even psionics existing as a concept. It just requires there to be plenty of non-flashy spells and classes that can choose those spells. So I'd assume the new mind-affecting spells will help there.
 

For me the points are used wrong in sorcerers.

To me, sorcerer spend sorcery points on metamagic to modify spells and activate special features.

Whereas psions spend psionic points directly into their powers into augments listed on them.

It's a subtle but important difference.
It seems like slightly different way to do basically the same thing. You might prefer it to be done your way, but when using a readymade system you just can't be this picky. There will always be some small things you would have preferred to do a bit differently; another person's creation can never be exactly as you'd do it. I get it, I have my personal mechanical hang ups. But the solution is to either accept that the RAW version is 'close enough' or start writing houserules. And depending on the situation I've done both.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I actually agree with this. I wish there was more focus on subtle, non-flashy magic. But this really doesn't depend on psionics rules being distinct, there being bespoke psion class or even psionics existing as a concept. It just requires there to be plenty of non-flashy spells and classes that can choose those spells. So I'd assume the new mind-affecting spells will help there.
It's there, but it's again entirely subsumed by arcane (and arguably divine) magic and without much thematic cohesion. The Sorcerer has a lot of spells that lie outside of psionics, which dilutes those themes considerably. This is one reason why I think that 5e would benefit from a full-fledged Psion class. Pathfinder 2 went out of its way to create an Occult spell list that delves into the more subtle, psychic, and occult themes of psionics. Four spell lists: arcane, divine, occult, and primal. I kinda wish this is the route that 5e D&D used.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
It seems like slightly different way to do basically the same thing. You might prefer it to be done your way, but when using a readymade system you just can't be this picky. There will always be some small things you would have preferred to do a bit differently; another person's creation can never be exactly as you'd do it. I get it, I have my personal mechanical hang ups. But the solution is to either accept that the RAW version is 'close enough' or start writing houserules. And depending on the situation I've done both.

No. I prefer the augments be tailored.

See metamagic has to be generalist. They must have broad effects so they can be applied to many spells.

But I prefer augments tailor themselves to their powers. You can't have Tentacle spell to turn a fire bolt to a grasping tentacle then after it hits use Crushing Spell tentacle to add bludgeoning damage. You can't use a transmutation spell then put points into it to choose which animal features the goo around you solidifies into.

That has to be written in the spell but spells dont have point based augments.

So I'll have to buy a nonWOTC product.
 

It's there, but it's again entirely subsumed by arcane (and arguably divine) magic and without much thematic cohesion. The Sorcerer has a lot of spells that lie outside of psionics, which dilutes those themes considerably. This is one reason why I think that 5e would benefit from a full-fledged Psion class. Pathfinder 2 went out of its way to create an Occult spell list that delves into the more subtle, psychic, and occult themes of psionics. Four spell lists: arcane, divine, occult, and primal. I kinda wish this is the route that 5e D&D used.
Well perhaps it indeed would be thematically clearer. 5E design tends to be too thematically muddled for my liking, so I feel you. But I guess here it comes whether the design is optimal and whether you can make it work. Like sure, you might prefer to have a bespoke psion class, but if you want to play a 'psion' then can the new psionic sorcerer adequately do that if you choose the spells that support that theme? Like you don't have to take the spells that you feel don't fit the theme. Whether or not you think the execution is perfect, this book will indubitably make representing these sorts of characters easier. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the passable.
 
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No. I prefer the augments be tailored.

See metamagic has to be generalist. They must have broad effects so they can be applied to many spells.

But I prefer augments tailor themselves to their powers. You can't have Tentacle spell to turn a fire bolt to a grasping tentacle then after it hits use Crushing Spell tentacle to add bludgeoning damage. You can't use a transmutation spell then put points into it to choose which animal features the goo around you solidifies into.

That has to be written in the spell but spells dont have point based augments.

So I'll have to buy a nonWOTC product.
The system to do this would be extensive and very convoluted. There was never even a remote chance that they'd do anything like this.
 

For me the points are used wrong in sorcerers.

To me, sorcerer spend sorcery points on metamagic to modify spells and activate special features.

Whereas psions spend psionic points directly into their powers into augments listed on them.

It's a subtle but important difference.

In other words, you want the old 3.5/4e mechanics. That's a fine wish. I hope it comes true some day. Personally, I don't care much about the mechanics, as long as they fade seamlessly into the background. The new psionic sorcerer does that for me. I'm perfectly happy with it.
 

You can't have Tentacle spell to turn a fire bolt to a grasping tentacle then after it hits use Crushing Spell tentacle to add bludgeoning damage.

Sounds like Evard's black tentacles.

Other options for reskinning: cloud of daggers, Maximillian's earthen grasp, web

You can't use a transmutation spell then put points into it to choose which animal features the goo around you solidifies into.

Sounds like hold person.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
Well perhaps it indeed would be thematically clearer. 5E design tends to be too thematically muddled for my liking, so I feel you. But I guess here it comes whether the design is optimal and whether you can make it work. Like sure, you might to have a bespoke psion class, but if you want to play a 'psion' then can the new psionic sorcerer adequately do that if you choose the spells that support that theme? Like you don't have to take the spells that you feel don't fit the theme. Whether or not you think the execution is perfect, this book will indubitably make representing these sorts of characters easier. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the passable.
Undoubtedly one of the core problems that you will find is answering "what's passable?" What you find "passable" is not necessarily what @Ruin Explorer or @Maxperson or other long-time fans of psionics would find passable. Based on what I saw in the playtests, I have my own doubts that the psionic soul sorcerer is passable for my tastes and liking.
 

What's wrong this this character? Why isn't it a psion?

Human 9th Level Psionic Soul Sorcerer
Cantrips: Friends, Mage Hand, Message, Mind Sliver, Minor Illusion
1st Level: Charm Person, Id Insinuation
2nd Level: Detect Thoughts, Hold Person, Levitate
3rd Level: Fear, Psionnic Blast
4th Level: Confusion, Ego Whip
5th Level: Dominate Person

Metamagic: Subtle Spell, Heightened Spell
 

Right. So 'fixated on the nomenclature.' A psion is person who focuses on developing and using psionic powers. Presumably the psionic sorcerer is exactly that.

We've seen the rules twice now. Unless they've been drastically changed the second time, this is not the case. The previous times they were a Sorcerer who cultivated some vaguely Far Realm/Psionic-themed abilities/spells, rather than someone who was using "psionic powers". They're no more a psion than a Draconic-origin Sorcerer is a dragon.

I actually agree with this. I wish there was more focus on subtle, non-flashy magic. But this really doesn't depend on psionics rules being distinct, there being bespoke psion class or even psionics existing as a concept. It just requires there to be plenty of non-flashy spells and classes that can choose those spells. So I'd assume the new mind-affecting spells will help there.

I mean, I agree with what you're saying but a major bar is the slot system, and the limited number of slots classes provide.

The slot system causes most spells to be designed in a very specific way - they either are non-concentration, and do a "one-off", often very major effect, or they're concentration, and they offer some kind of continuous effect, which is also typically pretty major. It's not just a matter of flash, it's a matter of scale. And the number of slots you have is very limited, and using higher-level slots for lower-level spells is often extremely wasteful (this improved a bit in 5E, but it's still pretty extreme). And each spell tends to be extremely confined in what it does (there is the odd exception).

I was thinking about this a bit, and I feel like what you really need for psionics is sort of more developed cantrips, almost, or cantrips you can "boost" somehow to have larger effects. Most of the more subtle magic in these books is cantrip-like, in that it's typically at will, but it is also often possible to vary the power, and sometimes to do amazing things. That doesn't work well with the design of spells present in the slot system.

The sad thing is, 5E isn't a million miles away from being able to do something like this well. It really would just need a spell-point rather than slot system, and more spells which scale, and probably some reconsideration of concentration. I don't think it'll happen short of 6E, though.
 
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We've seen the rules twice now. Unless they've been drastically changed the second time, this is not the case. The previous times they were a Sorcerer who cultivated some vaguely Far Realm/Psionic-themed abilities/spells, rather than someone who was using "psionic powers". They're no more a psion than a Draconic-origin Sorcerer is a dragon.
There were two versions, psionic mind and aberrant mind. Only the latter had the Chtulhu vibe. And yeah, I agree that they should definitely drop that. Thematically the sorcerer version should just be pure 'psionic mind,' without Lovecraftian stuff. Leave that to the warlocks.
 

Mystra is the Goddess of Magic in the Realms, why would her power extend beyond the crystal sphere of Realmspace to other planes? She doesn't have sovereignty over magic all throughout the multiverse, like in the Nine Hells or the Abyss. A Goddess of Magic from one single Prime Material world doesn't have universal say-so over other planes.

No matter how you describe or try to paraphrase it, arcane magic is something that in multiple mainstream, popular D&D settings doesn't come from within, but explicitly requires activity from a deity to exist. Without the Weave, only the Gods Themselves can use magic in Realmspace. . .and gee, I've already established that metaphysically, Gods can grant spells and provide magical energy.

So why does magic work in Hell? Why does Mephistophleses make deals with wizards to have them perform arcane research in the 8th layer? After all, they are powerless and can't do magic, or understand whatever force is being used in the Nine Hells, since it can't be magic, because Mystra can't effect the Nine Hells, and Mystra according to you, is the source of all magical energy.

In fact, I watched a video on Spelljammer a few months ago. They specifically said that while traveling the Phlogiston, Divine magic doesn't work beyond 2nd level I think they mentioned. But Arcane magic does, because you could accidentally explode everything with a fire spell. How is this possible? We are far outside of the Realms of the Gods, to the point where their clerics are rendered powerless, so Mystra can't be providing Divine Magic.

Are there super-secret Magic Gods just floating between the worlds, in the place where Gods don't exist, providing Arcane magic to travelers, but not Divine?


Again, it makes far more sense that the Gods like Mystra simply provide a framework and filter to make using magic easier, but that Magic itself is more like air. In and around everything, flowing in and out of the environment. This also would explain how some creatures are innately magical, higher concentrations of magical energy in their bodies. Not blessings of the Goddess of Magic, which is what would have to happen, under your framework.
 

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