D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[Chaosmancer]

It's not a spell, so fail. False Equivalences are false, no matter how often you repeat them.

Telekinesis is a spell, so therefore it cannot be a Psionic ability? How do you propose to have a Psion without Telekinesis, one of the most core and expected Psionic abilities?

Or will you have Telekinesis, called Telekinesis, work the exact same as Telekinesis....except this version has a sticker on it that says "100% not a spell"?

I already quoted it. It's magic, because RAW says it is. It isn't psionics, because it isn't listed as psionics like Mindflayer spellcasting is.

So, you literally only care about the tag "Psionic"

Because, to throw your own words back at you, "I mean, what did you think I was saying when I said, " For the record, I personally don't care if they do make it magic, so long as they don't try to make the powers into spells and/or have components be necessary."? "

So, it being Magic doesn't matter. You don't care if Psionics are magic. Saying the eyebeams are magic does not matter. The Mindflayer Psionics are also magic, by your own definitions.

They are also using spells.

The literal only difference is that one has the word Psionic on it.

Which, when they release "Psionic Spells" will mean that those are Psionics. Because it is listed as Psionics.

And you can't tell me it isn't, because that is the literal only difference you can point to at this point. What makes something Psionic is being called Psionic.

Yes, it does. The rule for Mindflayer "spells" is that they are psionics and their "spells" don't require components. Trying to compare an ability, which is not a spell to Mindflayer "spells" = fail. Apples don't become oranges no matter how much you want them to.[/QUOTE[

Oh, no components? Exactly like the rule for every other "Spell-Like Ability" in the game? A Pit Fiend's Fireball and Hold Person also don't require components.

Here, here is the exact text of both of them, plain as day.

[QUOTE] Innate Spellcasting: The pit fiend's spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 21). The pit fiend can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components:

At will: detect magic, fireball

3/day each: hold monster, wall of fire

[QUOTE] Innate Spellcasting (Psionics). The mind flayer’s innate spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 15). It can innately cast the following spells, requiring no components:

At will: detect thoughts, levitate

1/day each: dominate monster, plane shift (self only)
[/QUOTE]

The literal only difference in how those abilities work.... is nothing. They work using the exact same mechanics. They use a Spell Save Dc based off a stat. Neither requires components. Both list spells in the PHB. Both have at-will and X/Day spells.

The only difference is one says "Psionic". Which does not change the rules. Which does not make it any different from the Innate Spellcasting of the Pit Fiends, or any other creature that uses Innate Spellcasting. This is literally just someone selling you tap water in a fancy bottle, it isn't different, it just has a fancy label.

Sure, but spell telekinesis requires verbal and somatic components. Psionic telekinesis does not.

Well, not according to the rules. Because the rules only have one version of Telekinesis. And sometimes that spell does not require components, but according to you, it still isn't Psionic, it is still a spell.

We need that 10 cent label to convince you it is 1000% pure Psionic power.

Well, no. There are lots of possible differences. Psionics could be not-magic. Psionics could use a spell point system like 3e. Psionics could use an ability check system like 2e. Psionics could require the psionic die. And so on.

And the only version you have is innate spellcasting using the spell rules....

Which means that psionic spells are the only version in the game.

Seriously Max, you keep saying I'm comparing Apples to Oranges, but you are point to an Apple with a sticker that says Orange. And that does not an orange make.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Do we know if the Psionic Dice is sticking around. That was a really cool mechanic that allowed a lot of stuff.

Why? That stuff was really cool and allowed for a lot of cool feat, spell and ability interactions.

On of the more chilling reports from the survey had people claiming it was "too difficult" of a new system. Which... I hope not. But, for whatever reason (whether people thought it would run out too early, or was too powerful or wasn't utilized properly) it surveyed badly and they indicated it may not make it through.

Now, we don't know this 100%, it is possible it survived, but it is highly unlikely.

 

[Maxperson]

The literal only difference in how those abilities work.... is nothing. They work using the exact same mechanics. They use a Spell Save Dc based off a stat. Neither requires components. Both list spells in the PHB. Both have at-will and X/Day spells.

The only difference is one says "Psionic". Which does not change the rules. Which does not make it any different from the Innate Spellcasting of the Pit Fiends, or any other creature that uses Innate Spellcasting.

Pit Fiends require components for their innate spellcasting, but thanks for playing the, "I'm going to deliberately avoid seeing things." game again.

And the only version you have is innate spellcasting using the spell rules....

And of course the psionic innate spellcasting which doesn't use the exact spell rules, as it does not require components.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

So, how are we supposed to take psionic effects that already exist in the spell sub-system, make an entirely new sub-system, and make it feel different enough from magic, while also not unbalancing everything?That is the challenge. How do you make telekinesis different from telekinesis, while insisting that one is a wholly unique and new thing?

Ill restate my stab at it.

You create a susbsysyem called POWERS, and using existing spells and abilities already designed for the game you create new and interesting uses that are accessed by "psionics". This echos the power lists that monks and warlocks choose from that is native to their particular base class.

I will take Telekinesis as an example and use Control Water as a template for how it could be changed up. Telekinesis (the spell) already has a couple different uses listed in the text. You could separate those different use cases into different "power point" cost sub abilities or roll in different use cases to flesh out the power until one power choice provides a menu of different options at your disposal depending on how many points you want to spend on the use. This is exactly like the menu of choices Control Water offers, only instead of each choice being the same level of spell power in magnitude,the Power system allows one heading to have low to high powered options it allows.

Telekinesis
1pp: Slightly stronger mage armor effect but with concentration.
1pp: gain fly speed for 1 round (bonus action)
3pp: force choke power
5pp: move people around like the spell
Etc....

You make a set of these powers (12 or so) to represent the different common themes of psionics like telepathy, mind control, jedi powers, etc....

Now you have easily accomplished several things.
1. You have given a new base class a set of unique powers to play with that in combination allow different feels of psion.
2. You have connected the spell and the power TK in some way to each other to help build the fiction that while both are magic effects, they are distinct from each other.
3. You now have design space to build a base class psion detached from the baggage of the arcane casting sorcerer.
4. You didnt have to playtest 100 new things since you aren't reinventing the wheel, just mixing and matching themed abilities from various sources that already exist.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

A lot of people didn't like it. I think a lot of people thought it would go away too quickly, but the math didn't really support their fears.

I REALLY didn't like the idea that you could lose you class "schtick" with two unlucky rolls at the beginning of the day. If the lowest die crapping out instead of dropping had you take damage or make con save or be exhausted or something I'd have been OK with it as an interesting fresh idea.

 

[EscherEnigma]

That's not the only difference between psionic magic and magical spells. Psionic magic does not require component use. Magical spells do.

I was responding to one of your posts where you literally pointed to fluff, and only fluff, as the distinction. Not rules. Not mechanics. Not components. 100% fluff.

And of course the psionic innate spellcasting which doesn't use the exact spell rules, as it does not require components.

Yeah, that's not actually part of the rules. Page 10 of the Monster Manual:

A monster that casts spells using only the power its mind has the psionics tag added to its Spellcasting or Innate Spellcasting special trait. This tag carries no special rules of its own, but other parts of the game might refer to it. A monster that has this tag typically doesn't require any components to cast its spells.

Emphasis is mine.

 

[EscherEnigma]

I REALLY didn't like the idea that you could lose you class "schtick" with two unlucky rolls at the beginning of the day. If the lowest die crapping out instead of dropping had you take damage or make con save or be exhausted or something I'd have been OK with it as an interesting fresh idea.

Amusingly enough, that's part of what made it appeal to the hubby. He likes that kind of randomness, where a bad (or good) roll of the dice can change things up.

That said, at least in the options they showed a few months ago, you could 1/long rest use "psi replenishment" to reset your die. So that's at least four unlucky rolls at the beginning of the day.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, that's not actually part of the rules. Page 10 of the Monster Manual:

Emphasis is mine.

Someone should have let the writer know he was making an error. Go ahead and look up literally every psionic caster in the MM and then look up every non-psionic caster in the MM. I'll wait while you do. Then you can come back here and say how it's only the psionic spell casters that don't need components.

Then you can look at every incarnation of psionics in the UA and note how they all

 

[Maxperson]

I REALLY didn't like the idea that you could lose you class "schtick" with two unlucky rolls at the beginning of the day. If the lowest die crapping out instead of dropping had you take damage or make con save or be exhausted or something I'd have been OK with it as an interesting fresh idea.

This is what I meant by, "I think a lot of people thought it would go away too quickly, but the math didn't really support their fears." It took more than 2 unlucky rolls. It took 4 consecutive bad rolls to lose it quickly. Each of the classes that used the die got replenishment, which restored the die to full. So if two unlucky rolls got rid of it, then you just replenished and moved on. The odds were highly against you not getting a lot of use out of the ability. And once you hit a D8 at 5th level, it was even better.

 

[Weiley31]

I honestly don't mind if the Psioinics in 5E ends up being specific Talents, ala the one UA Psionics, that are specific to each different class. I liked the idea that it developed alongside your class and wasn't quite archetypes/subclasses. Psionics as spells are in unless they come up with a variant rule for those that prefer it that way.

And every time I look at Interface being mentioned, my mind keeps on thinking of Psi-Crystals.