D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[Ovinomancer]

My system isn't just moving around spells and calli Ng it something different because the different use cases are combinations of existing spells, class powers, race powers, item powers, and anything else appropriate that fits the POWER theme. It also includes some amount of new or modified existing content , just not 100% new or modified.

So if nothing else I've shown there COULD be a distinct feeling psionics system that isn't any more difficult mechanically than spellcasting and ki power use. You can argue about why that is all you like, but it's not like it would have been hard to come up with something more distinct than another sorcerer and some new spells.

No one's saying there couldn't be, but there currently isn't, and not for lack of trying.

 

[Samloyal23]

So much to unpack. Okay, if they make psionics into magic and use spells, I am just going to do a homebrew of my own or find a good third party set of rules. Part of the point of having psionics is to have a set of supernatural powers that has a different feel to it than magic and that means its own mechanics. I think just not wanting to learn a new set of mechanics is just lazy, put some effort into your game and be adventurous. Read the novel "Master of the Five Magics" by Lyndon Hardy. He has five classes of spellcasters, each class has a completely different set of magical laws and mechanics. There is no reason we cannot do the same thing in D&D. Throw in True Name magic, Pact magic, and Shadow magic from the "Tome of Magic", just update the mechanics. The 2E rules were amazing for the time. A skill and feat based psionics system with tangents and psionic harbingers an constructs could be done in 5E with the benefit of the updated skills rules and saving throws. Take a look at the Force rules from the d20 Star Wars game. Add telepathic combat and you have a psionics system.

Another thing I have not seen anyone discuss is the idea of psionics and magic accomplishing the same feat in different ways. Take Invisibility. There are lots of ways to make something invisible. You can transmute it so it is transparent all the way through. You can bend light around it with telekinesis. You can connect it to another plane like Shadow or the Fairy Other World so its substance is hidden. You can cloud minds with telepathy so that the object is edited out of a single target's perception. Deciding magic and psionics use different methods means they will have divergent mechanics and feel like they have their own niche.

 

[Remathilis]

Another thing I have not seen anyone discuss is the idea of psionics and magic accomplishing the same feat in different ways. Take Invisibility. There are lots of ways to make something invisible. You can transmute it so it is transparent all the way through. You can bend light around it with telekinesis. You can connect it to another plane like Shadow or the Fairy Other World so its substance is hidden. You can cloud minds with telepathy so that the object is edited out of a single target's perception. Deciding magic and psionics use different methods means they will have divergent mechanics and feel like they have their own niche.

Not necessarily. Right now, invisibility (2nd level spell) can be cast via arcane magic (wizard bard, sorcerer), divine magic (twilight cleric), primal magic (grassland druid), artifice (artificer) invocation (warlock's shroud of shadow), and yes, even psionics (duergar dwarf) all using the same mechanics.

 

[Ovinomancer]

So much to unpack. Okay, if they make psionics into magic and use spells, I am just going to do a homebrew of my own or find a good third party set of rules. Part of the point of having psionics is to have a set of supernatural powers that has a different feel to it than magic and that means its own mechanics. I think just not wanting to learn a new set of mechanics is just lazy, put some effort into your game and be adventurous. Read the novel "Master of the Five Magics" by Lyndon Hardy. He has five classes of spellcasters, each class has a completely different set of magical laws and mechanics. There is no reason we cannot do the same thing in D&D. Throw in True Name magic, Pact magic, and Shadow magic from the "Tome of Magic", just update the mechanics. The 2E rules were amazing for the time. A skill and feat based psionics system with tangents and psionic harbingers an constructs could be done in 5E with the benefit of the updated skills rules and saving throws. Take a look at the Force rules from the d20 Star Wars game. Add telepathic combat and you have a psionics system.

You do know that the 2e rules are considered by many to be a hot mess, right?

Another thing I have not seen anyone discuss is the idea of psionics and magic accomplishing the same feat in different ways. Take Invisibility. There are lots of ways to make something invisible. You can transmute it so it is transparent all the way through. You can bend light around it with telekinesis. You can connect it to another plane like Shadow or the Fairy Other World so its substance is hidden. You can cloud minds with telepathy so that the object is edited out of a single target's perception. Deciding magic and psionics use different methods means they will have divergent mechanics and feel like they have their own niche.

That's because, for me, this isn't something I consider. I can have every single one of your explanations occur within the same system of magic. What you're describing is a difference in flavor text, not in operation, so from a game rule perspective the different flavors don't require different mechanics -- they can all be represented by the same mechanic with a different description. The need for separate mechanics isn't to enable different descriptions.

There's nothing wrong, inherently, with different mechanics. For me, though, it brings up the specter of 2e psionics, which were, as I say above, a hot mess. There were easily abusable and in some places broken. Separate mechanics for what is largely the same thing results in larger chances at unbalanced or abuseable systems. Honestly, I think that this is part of the attraction for some, that brokenness. If it's a flavor thing, though, it can be easily accomplished within the same system with minor tweaks. I'd rather psionics not just be another caster class -- they need something unique. But, I don't say that because I think psionics needs a specific thing, but because we don't really need another caster class that doesn't have something to add to the game.

 

[Maxperson]

You realize that he was posting the one about "Psionics", right? It is right there in the text.

You don't really read the posts you respond to, do you?

 

[Samloyal23]

Not necessarily. Right now, invisibility (2nd level spell) can be cast via arcane magic (wizard bard, sorcerer), divine magic (twilight cleric), primal magic (grassland druid), artifice (artificer) invocation (warlock's shroud of shadow), and yes, even psionics (duergar dwarf) all using the same mechanics.

But would it not be more interesting if they did operate differently from each other, so they had their own means of being foiled and manipulated? Do you not find all of that sameness redundant and uninteresting?

 

[glass]

A lot of people didn't like it. I think a lot of people thought it would go away too quickly, but the math didn't really support their fears.

I suspect a lot of people responded negatively to all the psionics polls on general principle, regardless of the merits of the actual system being polled.

You misunderstood my point. Make your homebrew version. It will be great. But, that route is a route that was already rejected.

We know it has been rejected, that is what we are complaining about!

More generally, since there are a lot of posts in this thread doing the same thing, pointing out the rules say that psionics is X will never be a rebuttal of people complaining about psionics being X. Pretty much be definition.
_
glass.

 

[Remathilis]

But would it not be more interesting if they did operate differently from each other, so they had their own means of being foiled and manipulated? Do you not find all of that sameness redundant and uninteresting?

I find its not six different mechanical systems to learn, understand the interaction between, and hope are balanced against each other, all to achieve the effect of an automatic stealth check success.

 

[Maxperson]

Not necessarily. Right now, invisibility (2nd level spell) can be cast via arcane magic (wizard bard, sorcerer), divine magic (twilight cleric), primal magic (grassland druid), artifice (artificer) invocation (warlock's shroud of shadow), and yes, even psionics (duergar dwarf) all using the same mechanics.

Actually, there are three ways only. Arcane(wizard, bard, sorcerer, warlock and artificer), Divine(cleric, druid and paladin), and Psionic(called "Duergar Magic") which does not use components.

 

[Remathilis]

Actually, there are three ways only. Arcane(wizard, bard, sorcerer, warlock and artificer), Divine(cleric, druid and paladin), and Psionic(called "Duergar Magic") which does not use components.

I'll give you druids as divine, but artificers magic (which requires a tool to use and the effect to take a physical interactive form to use) are as distinct as psionics. (In fact, they're the inverse; artificers require materials and tool components to work, psionics is without components. It's about as distinct as psionics are using 5e's rules.

Edit: then again, if you want to go by spellcaster focus:

Arcane focus: wizard sorcerer and warlock
Divine focus: cleric, paladin, ranger
Druidic focus: druid
Musical instruments: bard
Artisan tools: artificer
None: psionics