Psionics: Magic or Not

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Why does this distinction really matter, given it all looks like magic? Why is telekenisis with "mind powers" meaningfully non-magical in a world where a wizard also moves objects about without touching them? Isn't this all "Unexplained mysterious physics-breaking stuff that a few can do"?

In "in world" or "in character" terms, I don't think the distinction matters at all.

In game terms -- from a rules perspective, that is -- a decision on one course or the other is necessary. My objections to psionics are all based on game rules and structure issues. If a player in game told me "I want to recolor my wizard as a mind-mage" and didn't touch the mechanics, I'd shrug and say "have at it."

I'll also admit to a deeply-ingrained, 1E-based prejudice against psionics. An appendix of the PHB touched me in an unnatural manner ...

 

[Tovec]

LOL exactly, it looks like magic.

Why does this distinction really matter, given it all looks like magic? Why is telekenisis with "mind powers" meaningfully non-magical in a world where a wizard also moves objects about without touching them? Isn't this all "Unexplained mysterious physics-breaking stuff that a few can do"?

Because, just like sufficiently advanced technology, psionics is not magic. And certainly not arcane magic.

Or, put another way, EVERYTHING is just magic. So, no divine, nor arcane, nor advanced technology, nor psionics; just magic.

But that means we are basing it only on what a peasant thinks it is. Else, if we want to specify that not everything a peasant thinks is magic is actually the same then we can define it differently. Just because it looks the same to an outside observer does not MAKE it the same.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Isn't this all "Unexplained mysterious physics-breaking stuff that a few can do"?

First, the implicit message is that anyone can do psionics, though most don't. After all, it was originally presented as a random thing that everyone rolled to see if they could access and was not a class at all (IIRC). Frankly, making it class-based was never a great idea, and the skills and feats approach hearkens back to the wild talent beginings.

Second, it's not unexplained. We know exactly where psionics comes from: the mind of the character.

 

[Andor]

For me the stumbling point with Psionics not being magic is the anti-magic field.

The anti-magic field always has seemed to me to represent an area where "real world" physics apply. In the real world I cannot lift a mug without touching it. Therefore if the mages levitation spell doesn't work but the Psions levitation power does it is distinctly disjarring to have this impossible action taking place in what is otherwise an impossibility free zone.

Or if the Psion really is using his internal energy to levitate that mug then I expect hiim to burn just as many calories as he would holding it in his hand. Similarly if he starts flinging boulders at high speed he's better have large fat reserves or a henchmen with an energy drink on standby. If not then you are violating the law of conservation of energy without the use of magic and your game world becomes a lot less accessable to my intuitive grasp.

As a literary example of this in Lawrence Watt-Evans "Ethshar" series one magical tradition called witchcraft has access to a traditional variety of tricks including levitation but they really are powered by your own energy, I think they call it vital essence. So you can levitate if you want to but you are doing as much work as if you were holding yourself over your own head. The trick was they didn't have good feedback on how much energy they had left. An overly ambitious witch could easily kill themselves by exhaustion. Another group called warlocks seems to employ the same bag of tricks but they call upon an outside energy source, which happily grants them essentially unlimited power. The trouble is that the energy source wants something from them and the more power they draw from it the harder it becomes to resist its call. Eventually they disappear, drawn off by the alien being calling in the debt of it's loaned power.

That world also contains other mystical traditions including Deism, Demonology, Necromancy, Sorcery, and most prominantly Wizardry which uses arcane rituals to achieve... almost anything really. But it's tricky and dangerous and you can screw up in bizzare ways. Wizardry can produce an anti-magic field in which wizardry simply ceases to operate. But it doesn't effect other forms of magic in the least because they draw upon different powers using different principles.

So the question really becomes, why does a single effect turn off both arcane AND divine magic but not psionics? If arcane and divine magic are far enough apart to warrant the split why don't they have seperate anti-blah zones? 3.5 dabbles with the concept of splitting out the anti-psionic zones from the anti-magic zone and I personally think that's a more cosmologically interesting way to go. However if you don't split out the zones by power or principle then it remains jarring to me conceptually to have a hunk of land with the special property of "Physics Only. 186,000 mps isn't just a good idea, it's the law." and then allow impossibilities to stroll on in if they only change the nametag and wear their hat on backwards.

 

[Mistwell]

First, the implicit message is that anyone can do psionics, though most don't. After all, it was originally presented as a random thing that everyone rolled to see if they could access and was not a class at all (IIRC). Frankly, making it class-based was never a great idea, and the skills and feats approach hearkens back to the wild talent beginings.

It was a random extremely small number of people. So, not anyone can do it. By definition, almost nobody could.

Second, it's not unexplained. We know exactly where psionics comes from: the mind of the character.

It's unexplained, because nobody knows HOW they are doing it, and why they can do it and others cannot.

I am pretty sure if I teleported you with my mind right now, you'd agree that was an unexplained event, and not settle for the answer of "with my mind" when you asked me how I did it.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I am pretty sure if I teleported you with my mind right now, you'd agree that was an unexplained event, and not settle for the answer of "with my mind" when you asked me how I did it.

Yes. But I wouldn't call it "magic".

I would assume that there was an explanation, even if I didn't know what it was. Which is antithetical to my concept of magic.

It was a random extremely small number of people. So, not anyone can do it. By definition, almost nobody could.

Semantics. Anyone could, for example, have 18 Str. Most don't, but anyone could. A wild talent is similar.

 

[Mistwell]

Yes. But I wouldn't call it "magic".

I would assume that there was an explanation, even if I didn't know what it was. Which is antithetical to my concept of magic.

In a fantasy world, you WOULD call it magic though.

Semantics. Anyone could, for example, have 18 Str. Most don't, but anyone could. A wild talent is similar.

Which is different from anything else in the game how? How is that different from a sorcerer, for example?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

First, the implicit message is that anyone can do psionics, though most don't.

Second, it's not unexplained. We know exactly where psionics comes from: the mind of the character.

*scratches head*

That all sounds like magic to me. Anyone could be a wizard or cleric or what have you, though most aren't. And we know exactly where a wizard's or cleric's power comes from: meta-science or the gods, respectively. (And I hold that, based on the fact that higher-level casters can cast more and better spells, there is very much an element of "It comes from the mind of the caster.")

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

[MENTION=1879]Andor[/MENTION] is right in that what we're really talking about is whether or not psionics is affected by dispel magic, detect magic, or an anti-magic field. He argues that it should be, in part because he sees those effects as "imposing reality".

On the other hand, I've always seen magic as just another form of physics and energy architecture. Dispelling effects instead have a disruptive effect on the structure of spells and magical artifice. The idea of psionics being different is that they don't use the same structures, or even the same energy sources, as traditional magic.

I can understand both points of view. I simply prefer psionics to be different.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Which is different from anything else in the game how? How is that different from a sorcerer, for example?

That all sounds like magic to me. Anyone could be a wizard or cleric or what have you, though most aren't.

Well, that's up for interpretation. Your sorcerer or warlock is implied to have a bloodline or some other quality that makes them abnormal. The cleric is implied to be chosen by the gods or other supernatural forces. I don't think it's clear that anyone could do those things. Any player can choose a PC that can do those things, but I don't think any person in the world necessarily can do them.

Different campaign settings do spin this differently though.