Psionics--the Poll!

[Paul Farquhar]

No, Traveller does NOT present them as having a scientific explanation. It doesn't explain them much; it just presents them as rules.

Traveller doesn't really explain Jump Drive either, but magic and the supernatural are not part of the setting, ergo everything in it is implied to have a scientific explanation.

 

[pemerton]

No, Traveller does NOT present them as having a scientific explanation. It doesn't explain them much; it just presents them as rules.

In both the 1977 and 1981 editions, the following text opens the chapter of Book 3 dealing with Psionics:

The powers of the mind are incredible; and some day the study of these powers will enable every individual to use them as an active part of his life. At the time in which Traveller occurs, however, universal psionic training does not exist; accurate information and quality training are available only through branches of the Psionics Institute, which is wholly devoted to the study of mental powers.​

They are powers of the mind. They are studied by an institute. And, in principle, everyone is able to learn these powers via training. To me it has always been clear that this is describing a type of scientifically-studied and comprehensible phenomenon, not supernatural ritual.

only because of a lack of nuance, there can be so many supernatural things that don't need to be connected to magic and spellcasting, like i said, distilling everything down to just being 'magic' is boring

it's like, imagine the avengers where they're all just wizards, tony doesn't have his suit he just knows fly and scorching ray, cap isn't a peak human or have his shield he just knows heroism and shield, thor isn't a god he just knows call lightning and spiritual weapon, black widow isn't a superspy she just knows pass without trace and charm person, hulk isn't a rage monster he just knows tenser's transformation and earth tremmor, hawkeye isn't a sharpshooter he just knows guiding bolt and swift quiver,

this is how it feels when people say 'it can all just be labelled magic'

I don't really follow.

I mean, I know that in the Marvel Universe science and magic are different phenomena. But there isn't a difference that I'm aware of between magic and the supernatural.

And your example also blends together flavour text and build elements in a particular way. I mean, in Hero/Champions (or some imaginable version thereof), I would build Hawkeye by combining the "accurate shot* and "rapid shot" options, with a limit of "gear - bow and arrows"; would build Iron Man by combining the "flying" and "energy blast" options, with a limit of "gear - hi-tech suit of armour"; etc.

Somewhat similarly, in Rolemaster, which is an example of psionics/mentalism that has already been mentioned in this thread, there is no mechanical difference between a Mentalist and a Magician except for some spell parameters, and the rules for being in different "realms" of magic, which mostly determine how armour, helmets and a lack of available hands penalise their casting,

I don't really subscribe to the position that difference of flavour (ie psionics is distinct from tome-of-magic-style wizardry) has to mean a difference in how a PC is built, or how the actions declared for them are resolved.

 

[aramis erak]

In both the 1977 and 1981 editions, the following text opens the chapter of Book 3 dealing with Psionics:

The powers of the mind are incredible; and some day the study of these powers will enable every individual to use them as an active part of his life. At the time in which Traveller occurs, however, universal psionic training does not exist; accurate information and quality training are available only through branches of the Psionics Institute, which is wholly devoted to the study of mental powers.​

They are powers of the mind. They are studied by an institute. And, in principle, everyone is able to learn these powers via training. To me it has always been clear that this is describing a type of scientifically-studied and comprehensible phenomenon, not supernatural ritual.

Dragonlance has magic studied at three institutes (the three towers of High Sorcery).

An institution studying something does not make it science... such as the various institutions "researching" and teaching flat-earth, intelligent design, theology, philosophy, any of the fine arts...

 

[Micah Sweet]

Dragonlance has magic studied at three institutes (the three towers of High Sorcery).

An institution studying something does not make it science... such as the various institutions "researching" and teaching flat-earth, intelligent design, theology, philosophy, any of the fine arts...

Except psychic powers are real things with real effects in that universe, and can be further developed with training.

 

[aramis erak]

Except psychic powers are real things with real effects in that universe, and can be further developed with training.

Only if you have the predicate talent. Most characters can't actually learn psionics. Had one player, his rolls resulted in a PSR 10 but no talents. Under CT, if you fail the talent roll, you never get to try again for that one. The order checked for is important, and so it's highly likely that most won't get past testing, and if they do, most will get only 2 or fewer, including 0.

It's noted in the section about reactions that most don't believe, and that if shown proof, well... Tarring and Feathering is one of the mentioned social results.

 

[Voadam]

There is a bit of a definitional issue/quirk with the supernatural. If there is supernatural stuff it is part of that universe and so not stuff that breaks the natural laws of that universe. It only breaks our understanding of the laws of our universe.

Psionics and magic are in accord with the natural laws of the settings in which they exist. D&D wizardry has always been a type of alt science for the magical setting of D&D with research and teaching and book learning that produces reproducible effects.

 

[Thomas Shey]

There is a bit of a definitional issue/quirk with the supernatural. If there is supernatural stuff it is part of that universe and so not stuff that breaks the natural laws of that universe. It only breaks our understanding of the laws of our universe.

I think "part of that universe" is doing some heavy load-bearing in that sentence. In many cases it isn't part of the same universe in the sense we think of it, and arguably does break the natural laws (or at least ignore them for its own).

 

[Voadam]

I think "part of that universe" is doing some heavy load-bearing in that sentence. In many cases it isn't part of the same universe in the sense we think of it, and arguably does break the natural laws (or at least ignore them for its own).

The closest that comes to mind for D&D is psionic things from the far realms and the far realms being outside of the multiverse, but even then you have countervailing stuff like 4e PC psionics being the Primal/natural world immune reaction to the far realms' outside the universe virus.

The Weave for example is part of the FR cosmology and part of the natural laws.

I can't think of a D&D setting where magic is an outside universe force contrary to the normal laws of that setting's universe and not an integrated part of the universe.

Is that like a deep secret of Radiance in Mystara? I could see that as part of its deep cut lore that I am not familiar with.

Deep Dragonlance lore has things like the gods coming from outside (not sure if it is the universe, the prime material plane, or the crystal sphere) and the moons being sources of arcane magic and the gods being sources of divine magic (until you get to the saga and going forward eras of non-theistic casters).

I remember the 1e Manual of the Planes sets up possible alternate primes where magic is not part of their universe and does not work, but these are not any of the 1e settings.

What specific D&D settings are you thinking of where magic is not part of the universe of that setting? Is it that magic is drawing power from planes and and the prime versus other planes is where you are drawing the line on part of the same setting universe?

 

[CreamCloud0]

I don't really follow.

I mean, I know that in the Marvel Universe science and magic are different phenomena. But there isn't a difference that I'm aware of between magic and the supernatural.

It's like dog breeds right? all greyhounds are dogs but not all dogs are greyhounds, and in fact, IMO, 'the supernatural' should actually be the larger overarching category of which magic is a specific subset of, but people are also far too eagre to make supernatural stuff and then asked to elaborate anything about how it functions they just lean on the crutch of 'it's magic, i don't have to explain bullcrap' because 'it's magiccccc.....' is a far too easy get out of jail free card for producing an actual explanation that clarifies anything.

And your example also blends together flavour text and build elements in a particular way. I mean, in Hero/Champions (or some imaginable version thereof), I would build Hawkeye by combining the "accurate shot* and "rapid shot" options, with a limit of "gear - bow and arrows"; would build Iron Man by combining the "flying" and "energy blast" options, with a limit of "gear - hi-tech suit of armour"; etc.

okay, i had intended that to be like, you are playing these characters and they are all DnD wizards, they all only have these two spells they each know, this is far less interesting than tony being an artificer, steve being a battlemaster, hulk being a barbarian, ect..., because it causes them to play differently, with different strengths and weaknesses, i don't know about how hero/champions works but, that limit you mention, i would imagine it affects how certain characters interact with the world and that's the same kind of thing: if hawkeye looses his bow or runs out of arrows he's stuffed, but Dr strange with his unlimited magic doesn't have that issue, but as a magic user he's probably more vulnerable to taking damage or something? so even if you took the same 'accurate shot' and 'rapid shot' abilities, and then gave them a limit of "magic user - weak physical defences" it changes how they feel to play.

Somewhat similarly, in Rolemaster, which is an example of psionics/mentalism that has already been mentioned in this thread, there is no mechanical difference between a Mentalist and a Magician except for some spell parameters, and the rules for being in different "realms" of magic, which mostly determine how armour, helmets and a lack of available hands penalise their casting,

I don't really subscribe to the position that difference of flavour (ie psionics is distinct from tome-of-magic-style wizardry) has to mean a difference in how a PC is built, or how the actions declared for them are resolved.

but let's take this to it's logical end point, if this were true, why do wizards and fighters have different mechanics then? why do learned spell wizards and prepared spell clerics exist? why does a rogue have sneak attack whereas a barb rage and reckless attack? why do sorcerers have sorcery points and warlocks pact magic and invocations? why are there attack roll and saving throws for attacks? people desire things that are meant to be different to feel different when they use them, psionics isn't just the secret 9th school of spell categorisation, it's meant to be an entirely different separate source and type of power, that's why people desire different mechanics for them.

 

[pemerton]

but let's take this to it's logical end point, if this were true, why do wizards and fighters have different mechanics then? why do learned spell wizards and prepared spell clerics exist? why does a rogue have sneak attack whereas a barb rage and reckless attack? why do sorcerers have sorcery points and warlocks pact magic and invocations? why are there attack roll and saving throws for attacks? people desire things that are meant to be different to feel different when they use them, psionics isn't just the secret 9th school of spell categorisation, it's meant to be an entirely different separate source and type of power, that's why people desire different mechanics for them.

The focus on mechanical minutiae is, in my experience at least, a D&D-ism.

Other RPGs that I play don't rely on it. And my favourite version of D&D - 4e D&D - doesn't rely on it either.