Question about the Globes of Invulnerability.

[Caliban]

It seems at least as likely that "spells already in effect" means "spells already in effect in the spell's area of effect", rather than "spells already in effect"?

-Hyp.

It actually seems more likely, given what the purpose of the spell seems to be.

Besides, how does the globe know whether or not a spell was cast before or after the globe came up, if the spell effect enters the globe after the globe was cast?

It makes much more sense that the globe simply suppresses any new spell effects (of 3rd level or lower) that it enter it's area after it comes into being.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It actually seems more likely, given what the purpose of the spell seems to be.

As far as I can tell by the wording, the purpose of the spell seems to be to exclude any spell of 4th level or lower that wasn't already in effect when the globe is cast.

Besides, how does the globe know whether or not a spell was cast before or after the globe came up, if the spell effect enters the globe after the globe was cast?

How does a Forbiddance "know" if someone has an alignment different to yours?

How does a Bless spell "know" if a creature is an ally?

How does a Glyph of Warding "know" if an item already has a Fire Trap spell cast on it?

It's magic.

It makes much more sense that the globe simply suppresses any new spell effects (of 3rd level or lower) that it enter it's area after it comes into being.

Not as written, it doesn't.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

As far as I can tell by the wording, the purpose of the spell seems to be to exclude any spell of 4th level or lower that wasn't already in effect when the globe is cast.

:\ Sorry, forgot that you ignore any hint of intent on how the spell supposed to be used, you just apply the most literal possible interpretation of the text. That doesn't alway give the best results, since 3.5 is roleplaying game and not a computer program.

The globe is intended to guard you against "lesser" magics (below 4th or 5th level). It specifically doesn't suppress spells that are already in effect when it is cast, mainly so that your buff spells aren't dropped when you cast it. This is a change from 3.0. (In 3.0 it didn't get much use because it would drop your mage armor, shield, mirror image, haste, fly, blink, displacement, etc.)

It doesn't make sense for the spell to not suppress buffs or other spells that are on your opponents, just because they happen to be up before you cast the globe. That's contrary to the intent of the spell. It makes it nearly useless.

It makes more sense that the change in the spell was intended to make it more useful, not less useful. It is intended to allow you to keep your own spells while suppressing your opponents spells.

How does a Forbiddance "know" if someone has an alignment different to yours?

Because people have alignments that can be easily detected by magic.

How does a Bless spell "know" if a creature is an ally?

The spell doesn't. There is no "detect ally" game mechanic that I'm aware of. The GM has to decide if it's based on the caster's perceptions or the gamemaster's knowledge.

How does a Glyph of Warding "know" if an item already has a Fire Trap spell cast on it?

The presence of the fire trap spell prevents the glyph from being placed on it. The glyph spell doesn't have to "know" anything. It just doesn't work.

It's magic.

Sorry, that explanation doesn't wash in this case. You are trying to add capabilities to the spell that don't make sense, and aren't listed in the spell description.

Not as written, it doesn't.

-Hyp.

As written, it most definitely does. Your interpretation makes the spell nearly useless, and goes counter to the intent of the spell (protecting you from spells and hindering your enemies).

 

[Hypersmurf]

The globe is intended to guard you against "lesser" magics (below 4th or 5th level).

Right.

It specifically doesn't suppress spells that are already in effect when it is cast...

Absolutely.

... mainly so that your buff spells aren't dropped when you cast it.

Assumption.

It doesn't make sense for the spell to not suppress buffs or other spells that are on your opponents, just because they happen to be up before you cast the globe. That's contrary to the intent of the spell. It makes it nearly useless.

So the fact that you can't be hit with a Lightning Bolt or Magic Missile, targetted with a Hold Person or Dispel Magic, can't have your Greater Invisibility (which the GoI doesn't affect, since it was precast) negated by Invisibility Purge or Glitterdust... is nearly useless?

It is intended to allow you to keep your own spells while suppressing your opponents spells.

No, it allows you to retain spells cast before GoI, while negating spells cast after GoI. If I cast GoI before I cast Mirror Image, my own spell is suppressed. As a tradeoff for allowing me to retain my spells cast before GoI, it also allows opponents to retain theirs. But any cast afterwards will be suppressed.

Because people have alignments that can be easily detected by magic.

And yet someone with an Undetectable Alignment spell - which prevents their alignment being determined by all forms of Divination - will still be hedged out by a Forbiddance. Or damaged by a Holy Sword. Or affected by a Dictum.

The presence of the fire trap spell prevents the glyph from being placed on it. The glyph spell doesn't have to "know" anything. It just doesn't work.

Exactly. The time that the opponent's spell was cast prevents the GoI from suppressing it. The GoI doesn't have to "know" anything. It just doesn't work.

Sorry, that explanation doesn't wash in this case. You are trying to add capabilities to the spell that don't make sense, and aren't listed in the spell description.

Hmm? I'm not trying to add anything. It clearly states that spells already in effect when the GoI is cast are not affected.

You are attempting to add capabilities that aren't listed in the spell description - suppressing spells that were already in effect when the GoI is cast.

-Hyp.

 

[allenw]

It seems at least as likely that "spells already in effect" means "spells already in effect in the spell's area of effect", rather than "spells already in effect"?

-Hyp.

The question is, what does "spells already in effect" mean in this context? Saying that it means itself is logically true, but not particularly useful.
Just to remind everyone what we're talking about here:

An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower. The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. Excluded effects include spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from items. However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of the magical globe. Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast. The globe can be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell, but not by an area dispel magic. You can leave and return to the globe without penalty.

The phrase "spells already in effect" does not have useful meaning in and of itself, outside of the context of the spell description. In that context, I note two things:
1: The effects of the Globe are otherwise always described in terms of "inside" and "outside," so I assume that that distinction applies to "spells already in effect" as well.
2: "You can leave and return to the Globe without penalty." I think the only "penalty" that might otherwise apply would be if your "spells already in effect" were supressed when you re-entered the sphere. However, that would only be an issue if "spells already in effect" *outside* the Sphere would normally be supressed.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The phrase "spells already in effect" does not have useful meaning in and of itself, outside of the context of the spell description.

It's a term used throughout the Magic section.

A spell comes into effect at the conclusion of its casting time.

CASTING TIME
Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a free action.

A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1- round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.

When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.

A spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn’t count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

If the casting time of the spell is complete, the spell is in effect.

If that occurred before the GoI is cast, then it is a "spell already in effect".

-Hyp.

 

[allenw]

It's a term used throughout the Magic section.

A spell comes into effect at the conclusion of its casting time.

"Comes into effect" is used throughout the Magic section; "already in effect" is not. However, to use your example: Yes, a spell comes into effect at the conclusion of its casting time; it also generally comes into effect in some location or area within its range. "Spells already in effect when the globe is cast" could be referring strictly to time, or it could be referring to both time and space.
I think my stronger argument is #2 above, though. To reiterate: The spell text says "You can leave and return to the Globe without penalty." I think the only "penalty" that might otherwise apply would be if your "spells already in effect" were supressed when you re-entered the sphere. However, that would only be an issue if "spells already in effect" *outside* the Sphere would normally be supressed.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"Spells already in effect when the globe is cast" could be referring strictly to time, or it could be referring to both time and space.

Ahh... the lesser-known "spatial when".

I think my stronger argument is #2 above, though. To reiterate: The spell text says "You can leave and return to the Globe without penalty." I think the only "penalty" that might otherwise apply would be if your "spells already in effect" were supressed when you re-entered the sphere. However, that would only be an issue if "spells already in effect" *outside* the Sphere would normally be supressed.

Alternatively, it simply means that even though it's an emanation "centred on you", it doesn't follow you around, and the globe doesn't collapse if you leave.

-Hyp.

 

[den4quest]

Range 0 spells mean that the target is you. Globe moves with YOU the target. It is not stationary. What would be the point of the spell? ("Hey look that mage has a Globe up...well you know what that means....lets go around the corner have a latte and come and blast him once it's expired.....ho hum") Secondly, the intent of the spell is quite simple....it has no effect on any spells cast by the caster at any moment. It is simply a screen to prevent any HOSTILE spells from PENETRATING the globe from the OUTSIDE. It doesn't counter other spells cast on any targets, EVER. I think the problem is the name, Invulnerability. Makes you think that it's way more powerful than it is. Actually though my interpretation of it is not quite as abusable and is more useful. So, thinking that it will turn off other peoples fly spells is just ridiculous as it would not stop someone who enters the globe with shocking hands precast from giving you a nice 'how's your Father'. It will do fine doing what it was meant to do though and that is stop you from being pricked by magic missiles and blasted by incoming fireballs....

 

[Rabulias]

Range 0 spells mean that the target is you. Globe moves with YOU the target. It is not stationary.

Normally this is the case, but the first line of the spell's description says the globe is immobile.