D&D 5E [+] Questions for zero character death players and DMs…

Reading through this thread, I've had another thought, mostly tied around that Chess analogy.

See, losing a pawn is an expected part of play. I agree with that. But why did you lose the pawn? Because another player took your pawn. Your loss was their success. You can never lose a piece in chess or territory in Risk without it being because another player succeeded.

Now, how do we refer to DMs? Are they another player who is in conflict with you? No, we actually refer to them as Referee's. This comes from sport's, so let us look at sports. Since we were using pawns and losing territory for board games, let's use scoring points for Sports. If a team loses a point, why did that happen? Because the other team scored a point. If the team is the player, then it is exactly what the situation was for the board game. Your loss was someone else's success. The Referee never scores a point in the game.

And this is why I think the analogy falls apart so hard. Because a character's death is a loss for the player, it is a loss for the party... and it is a loss for the DM. It is never a success for the DM to kill a person's character, excepting in the most extreme circumstances. When I DM, it is bad for me when a player's character dies. It harms the story I am telling. I had plans for that character. I had challenges I wanted them to face.

So the loss is no one's gain. No one got closer to victory with the death of the character... why not put it off until it IS a gain. Why not put it off until we all can agree that this scores a point and is fine?
Alternatively, why not use methods of loss or detriment which are not player failures and which terminate stories, and instead use methods which cause stories to branch or redirect to something else?

Which is, like I said, why I am not absolutely opposed to death. I just want that death to actually do something. Most deaths in D&D-type games have no impact beyond the fact that they occurred and caused a bunch of stories to be rather dull as a result.
 

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Alternatively, why not use methods of loss or detriment which are not player failures and which terminate stories, and instead use methods which cause stories to branch or redirect to something else?

Which is, like I said, why I am not absolutely opposed to death. I just want that death to actually do something. Most deaths in D&D-type games have no impact beyond the fact that they occurred and caused a bunch of stories to be rather dull as a result.
I don’t know, I don’t think most character deaths make for dull stories. The do mark the end of that character’s story, but they can be thrilling, tragic, memorable parts of the larger story of the campaign. Some deaths are anticlimactic, but I don’t find that most are.
 



Is this an actual example or a hypothetical? Where was the rest of the party?

Which points to a distinction that hasn’t really been discussed: the actions of the other members of the party.

Say for the sake of argument that your character takes a hit and drops. Your party figures that the priority is finishing the combat, rather than healing you. On round 2 of death saves, you roll a 1 (5% chance) and die.

I would feel uncomfortable saying that the character’s death was “your fault” in that instance. However, I would also feel uncomfortable saying the death was “random”. The character’s death was the result of the actions of the other players. Perhaps they were justified in taking the risk, perhaps not.
That was an actual thing that happened to an3e character of mine. It was a replacement 6th level character coming in as I had just lost a different one. Rogue pops up and joins the party for no real reason other than to play the game. First 15 minutes of play we had entered the dungeon/mine/whatever. I announced I would be searching for traps out in front of the party. GM rolls behind the screen for my search roll and I failed to spot the trap, which I then set off as I passed by it.

GM asked for a save, which I failed, so I took full damage. Trap damage roll was really good so it took me from full health to dead in one blow (notice full health to dead or dying in one hit is a common theme of deaths that feel random to me). This character lasted less than one hour of adventuring at 6rh level, which should be advanced enough to a iid the one-crot-kills-you stage of adventuring in 3e.

I literally have no idea how some people are playing if having a straight rogue and searching for traps when advancing down a hallway isnt enough caution to avoid the mantle of "It was your fault because you played poorly".
 

I don’t know, I don’t think most character deaths make for dull stories. The do mark the end of that character’s story, but they can be thrilling, tragic, memorable parts of the larger story of the campaign. Some deaths are anticlimactic, but I don’t find that most are.
I mean in pop culture, I can count the non-dull character deaths on maybe two hands.

In game, I could do it even after a particularly tragic lawnmower accident and even then it had nothing to do with the story of the game and everything to do with the culmination of that player doing everything possible to never interact with the party and also making a character explicitly to kill mine blowing up in his face in a goldbergian nightmare that still ended up being down to a lucky crit in the first round.
 

I’m not discounting situational factors. Situational factors play a huge role in D&D. Putting your character into risky situations is a huge part of the game! Of course that’s going to have a significant impact on the likelihood of a character’s survival. It’s a push-your-luck game, that’s how they work. You do your best to make decisions that will maximize the chances of desirable results and minimize the chances of undesirable results, and then you either take the risk or decide not to. Either way, you have to live with the results you get.

I think this is the core of the problem. I would never describe DnD as a "push your luck" game. Those games to me are more like blackjack. You don't have all of the additional parts of a DnD game.

When my character writes letters to his Faerie Wife, explaining his turmoil in a world gone mad, I'm not pushing my luck to achieve greater rewards. When I confront the villain about their misdeeds, and how the ends do not justify the means, I'm not pushing my luck to get greater rewards. Some of the most rewarding things you can do in DnD involving losing those material gains for righteous causes.

For many of us, the premise that the game is a "push-your-luck" style game is wrong, and I think that is why we push back on death, because it isn't serving the needs of our table. It isn't just an undesirable result, it is a result that says the game is over. And I know you will express confusion, the game isn't over, you can make a new character, but for many of us the point of the game was to play THAT character, and them being dead means THAT game is over. Maybe we can play a largely similar game, but I've seen the effects of character loss on a game, and it never feels the same until a few sessions later when the new normal sets in. Playing a new character in a long-running campaign? It feels cheap to me. Like nothing I did before matters at all, because it was all erased, and now I'm trying to catch up in the last few minutes.
 

I don’t know, I don’t think most character deaths make for dull stories. The do mark the end of that character’s story, but they can be thrilling, tragic, memorable parts of the larger story of the campaign. Some deaths are anticlimactic, but I don’t find that most are.
Tragic, as noted in...one of these threads, I don't remember which, requires that the characters grieve, process the loss, deal with the consequences, struggle to move on (or struggle with how easily they could move on), etc.--or time and attention are given to showing the absence of these things. Or at least I can't call something a "tragedy" without those elements. I don't find D&D deaths work that way. There is no tragedy, because the group just moves on, it isn't particularly fun or interesting to dwell on the death, short-circuiting the roleplay events that would be required for the tragedy to have teeth. Instead, it's a lot more like a character being fridged. As usual, not the same because that's a writing trope, and thus an authorial-fiat choice rather than a constellation of player behaviors, but the shallowness of the "tragedy" is very similar. Like, as the linked video notes, Luke basically having zero emotional impact (beyond a brief tearful scene) from having his beloved adoptive parents, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, horrifically burned to death along with their moisture farm, making him an orphan twice over. It bears a strong similarity to the "Bob died, and then we met Roberta" stuff.

"Memorable" is...variable. A death can be very memorable, but I find that it's a particular kind of memorable that is kind of...empty. It's an event that happened, and you don't forget that it happened, but it just doesn't end up connecting to anything for the already-stated reasons. Especially if it is, as noted, of the "random orc #6 got a crit" or, in my case, "random massive war-hulk creature got a crit," since that means the only memorable thing about it is that it happened.

"Thrill," which I intentionally skipped over, is hella complicated because....well, death itself is actually kind of the antithesis of "thrilling," at least as I understand the term. Thrilling things are dynamic or highly inconclusive, you don't know where the coin will fall. The moment death itself happens, however, the thrill is gone, because you know what's happened, and by definition it cannot be dynamic for that player anymore, their participation is terminated. Literally. So there is thrill in the risk, thrill in the chase, thrill in the unknown, but not thrill in the death itself, much as there is thrill when you make a gamble, which resolves when you show your cards.

And, worth noting, you can still get all these benefits--the memorability, the tragedy, the thrill--with deaths that are temporary (like Gandalf's) or fixable (like my character's death was.) In fact, I find that it is more memorable and thrilling, and in a very specific sense also more tragic despite the potential happier ending, to have those temporary or fixable deaths. It's more memorable because many more events will be attached to it, and the death can become the spark for a whole arc or even set the tone for an entire campaign in some cases--the death becomes bound up in a whole arc, rather than being a single point. It's more thrilling because, instead of terminating all unknowns and risks, the death creates new unknowns and risks, and new ways that the party could potentially fail. In other words, the story grows as a result of the death, rather than withering.

As I mentioned, the "more tragic" thing is somewhat nuanced. Above, I said that there isn't really an opportunity for tragedy in a lot of these deaths because most groups just breeze through the grieving process and either don't examine the impact of the death, or only do so in a relatively shallow way. But if this cruel fate could possibly change, the party has a reason to keep dwelling on it, to engage in the grieving process, to keep the death centered in their minds. As a result, you can get poignant moments that just wouldn't really happen in most games, because the focus is on integrating Roberta, not on mourning Bob. Ultimately, the final ending will of course be "less tragic" in the sense that the dead person comes back to life, which is generally a joyful thing--the prodigal son returns. But the journey to that end, particularly if it is (appropriately) fraught with peril and uncertain as to its final shape, is where the feeling of tragedy can live and breathe and sink its teeth into your heart. What price will, in the end, be paid for a life? Often that price is a great pain ever after.
 
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I think this is the core of the problem. I would never describe DnD as a "push your luck" game. Those games to me are more like blackjack. You don't have all of the additional parts of a DnD game.

When my character writes letters to his Faerie Wife, explaining his turmoil in a world gone mad, I'm not pushing my luck to achieve greater rewards. When I confront the villain about their misdeeds, and how the ends do not justify the means, I'm not pushing my luck to get greater rewards. Some of the most rewarding things you can do in DnD involving losing those material gains for righteous causes.

For many of us, the premise that the game is a "push-your-luck" style game is wrong, and I think that is why we push back on death, because it isn't serving the needs of our table. It isn't just an undesirable result, it is a result that says the game is over. And I know you will express confusion, the game isn't over, you can make a new character, but for many of us the point of the game was to play THAT character, and them being dead means THAT game is over. Maybe we can play a largely similar game, but I've seen the effects of character loss on a game, and it never feels the same until a few sessions later when the new normal sets in. Playing a new character in a long-running campaign? It feels cheap to me. Like nothing I did before matters at all, because it was all erased, and now I'm trying to catch up in the last few minutes.
See, if I can't die in a game unless I will it, then nothing I do in the game means anything to me. Its like that immortal ennui you see in vampire stories. Life ceases to matter, because there are no consequences you can't come back from.
 

See, if I can't die in a game unless I will it, then nothing I do in the game means anything to me. Its like that immortal ennui you see in vampire stories. Life ceases to matter, because there are no consequences you can't come back from.
There are many consequences you can't get back from that aren't even remotely related to dying. You could do an entire epic story about a supreme grandmaster warrior and how they can't get over that ONE time they lost a scrimmage match versus an inferior.

I find those things more interesting to explore than "Well, theyre dead so who's next?"
 

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