D&D 5E [+] quick proposal for Assassins to use poison

[CapnZapp]

Something like:

If you spend one minute before a combat, make a Poison Kit (Dexterity) tool check. If you're rushed, you can make it in two rounds if you take disadvantage on the check. What you can use for the coming fight depends on your result (see table below).

Combat poison is delivered by slashing or piercing weapon attacks. You can apply your poison either to one weapon or three pieces of ammunition. Ammunition lose the poison after one hit. Weapons lose the poison after five hits. Applied but unused poison dries up and is destroyed after 10 minutes.
(That melee/thrown weapons get five usages and ranged ammunition only gets three is an intentional balancing factor)

Poison dice = a number of d6 poison damage dice equal to your proficiency bonus. These dice count as weapon dice for purposes of crit doubling.

Poison save DC = 8 + your Proficency bonus + your Intelligence ability modifier. All poison saves are Constitution saves.

Poison Kit (Dexterity) tool check
<10: you poison yourself. You take poison dice damage and must make a save vs poison at your own poison save DC. Failure and you suffer the Poisoned condition until healed of all poison damage.
10-14: you wasted your time, but feel free to try again
15-19: choose effects (see below) totaling 1 poison point
20-24: choose effects totaling 2 poison points
25-29: choose effects totaling 1d6 poison points
30 or more: choose effects totaling 2d6 poison points
(Poison use is never entirely reliable, reflected by good tool checks result yielding variable results)

Poison Points and Effects menu
1: add your proficiency bonus as poison damage to any attack
2: add poison dice damage to your sneak attack damage
2: add poison dice damage to the first hit on each target
2: apply Poisoned condition (save ends)*
3: apply Incapacitated condition (save ends)*
3: apply Restrained condition (save ends)*
4: add poison dice damage to any attack
4: apply Stunned condition (save ends)*
4: sticky poison: you can add it to six pieces of ammunition or it lasts ten hits on a weapon
4: strong poison: creatures are vulnerable to any damage dealt by the poison, and have disadvantage on saving throws against the poison
4: debilitating poison: any condition give a single initial save and have the duration 10 minutes instead of save ends otherwise
5: apply Unconscious condition (save ends)*
Multiple effects are cumulative. A given effect, however, only applies once per standard stacking rules. Make a single save against one poison, even if it imposes many conditions (succeeding or failing against all of them at once). As previously mentioned: Ammunition lose the poison after one hit. Weapons lose the poison after five hits. Any saves are made against your poison save DC.

*) Creatures that have advantage on saving throws against poison isn't affected initially, only after failing their save (that they make with advantage).

Note how this doesn't discuss cost. That's mainly because something like "spend 100 gp per tool check" is useless as anything more than a background/atmosphere trivia piece. While likely exorbitant on low levels, equally likely trivial at high levels.

This is a work in progress - I look forward to constructive balancing comments. Such as posts discussing how often the Rogue can expect to reach DC 25 at low or high levels. Or whether Incapacitated condition should be cheaper or more expensive, etc.

Please post comments of the "I don't like it" or "Poisons shouldn't work this way" variety elsewhere. Consider this a "plus thread".

Thanks in advance

 

[CapnZapp]

I should add that the intention is definitely that you can only have one batch of poison per combat.

If you have a suggestion on how to rules-codify this, I'm all ears. I am aware the current wording allows a character to spend three minutes to apply poison to three short swords, and then drawing a new short sword once the first one's poison is used up.

If I need to shorten the poison duration to one minute (making this strategy meaningless, since when you're done with batch #2 the first batch will have dried up) and removing the "hurry at disadvantage" clause, so be it.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I feel that the Poisoner's Kit check should be intelligence -based.

Does this replace any of the assassin's current abilities, or is it in addition to them?
Can other classes/subclasses gain access to this capability?

There doesn't seem to be a duration for poison that isn't applied. I'm guessing that the intention is not to allow a character to stockpile large amounts of poison doses and then just apply them to every fight.
You could use a long or short rest mechanic: brewing one or more doses. I'd suggest long rest, and have the doses spoil after 24 hours to prevent stockpiling.
Number of doses that can be produced per long rest is your call: however many you thing Assassins need to bring their damage capability up to the other rogue subclass' levels.

You should probably codify some rules regarding other people using the poison or pre-dosed weapons. Even if that it "You can't."

 

[CapnZapp]

Excellent questions, Kobold.

Anyone is meant to be allowed to make this check, assuming you have poison kit proficiency. That includes all kinds of rogues, not just assassins.

(feel free to restrict to only "assassins, drow, and other evil creatures" for story purposes, though)

The point was to make you anticipate combat enough to spend a minute just before it erupts. The poison is only good for 10 minutes.

When you're surprised and don't have even two rounds worth of warning, you will have to do without poison (assuming you won't waste two combat rounds just to make a poison kit check)

That's the RAI, at least.

Perhaps poison kit checks are Int based, I just assumed Dex since it would be the Assassin's prime stat. I'm open to changing this.

It doesn't replace any existing rogue features.

The blade coated with poison could conceivably be used by another person, at least from a balance perspective (assuming the poisoner has to do without). But if it makes more sense for the party tank to "steal" the Rogue's poison check, by all means require the user to have to make his own poison kit checks.

Did I miss anything?

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[Kobold Stew]

My fellow Kobold has anticipated my suggestions.

1. Use of poison should be Intelligence-based, not Dex. The fact that rogues have Dex as their prime stat most often is the reason for, not the reason against.

2. Use of poison is incompatible with good alignment; possibly only evil.

3. Not for Assassins only (already answered).

4. Another 1-point effect: Enough poison remains on the blade for another attack.

5. The threshold seems low, but I'm sure it would become apparent in play soon enough.

 

[TallIan]

2. Use of poison is incompatible with good alignment; possibly only evil.

I've never liked the blanket view of poisons being evil. Consider a modern parallel - Seren Gas, definitely evil, tear gas? I'd rather that than getting shot (I've been gassed it was not fun, I've not been shot but I'd like to keep it that way).

I would say it very much depends on the poison effects, rendering someone unconscious or incapacitated is hardly evil (certainly no more than the killing they is likely to follow).

 

[CapnZapp]

For the purposes of this thread, an alignment restriction isn't an useful balancing mechanism, so it isn't included.

(Feel free to use alignment as a storytelling restriction though)

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[Kobold Stew]

The poison effects here are fixed; it's not tear gas. It may not be an effective or meaningful balancing mechanism, but it should be stated.

 

[Phazonfish]

I don't like it; poisons shouldn't work this way. Just kidding.

This sounds like a really interesting system. If you are looking for other possible wordings, how does this sound for a rephrasing of the first section?

"Starting at Xth level, you can use a Poison Kit to make debilitating poisons. You spend at least one minute crafting the poison, which requires you to make a Dexterity (Poison Kit) tool check and expend 100 gp worth of materials. The effects of the poison are determined by the result of this tool check (see table below).

As a bonus action, you can apply this poison to one melee weapon that deals slashing or piercing damage, or up to 3 pieces of ammunition for a ranged weapon that deals slashing or piercing damage. The poison loses its potency after 8 hours or next time you use a poison kit. Once applied, the poison dries up after 10 minutes or after 5 attacks have been made with the poisoned weapon."

I also probably wouldn't write a section defining poison dice given that they are not really referenced in many places.

 

[TallIan]

For the purposes of this thread, an alignment restriction isn't an useful balancing mechanism, so it isn't included.

(Feel free to use alignment as a storytelling restriction though)

Good point, the only balance issue I see is that poisoners kit becomes very useful, unlike most other tool proficiencies (thieves tools aside) that are worth more than fluff.