Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
If a creature is blind and deaf, do you allow a reflex save against a fireball?
-Hyp.
-Hyp.
Quicker than the Eye and AoO
- Thread starter Hypersmurf
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Quicker than the Eye and AoO
Exactly. And there's always the chance that they _will_ still target the correct square, purely by blind luck.
_But whom you know is there_. That's the point. Now if the person who provokes the AoO is outside the threatened area of the attacker, then it all becomes moot. But otherwise, there's always a chance that they'll get lucky.
No, you don't.
... WABBIT season!
It's the logical conclusion that is reached by reflecting on what the rules are supposed to represent, which is a state of constant attack-dodge-parry-move in continuous time.
You're not making sense here.
Um, pretty much, yes. What do you think someone who's confronted by an invisible attacker, and hasn't managed to pinpoint them, is going to do?
Although in terms of game mechanics, it's not _every_ square that gets attacked. Note that you still have to choose the correct square in which to make the AoO, like with any attack. If you choose right, you got lucky and can move on to the 50% miss chance. Otherwise, the AoO is wasted.
Where exactly does it state this?
Caliban said:
Exactly. And there's always the chance that they _will_ still target the correct square, purely by blind luck.
_But whom you know is there_. That's the point. Now if the person who provokes the AoO is outside the threatened area of the attacker, then it all becomes moot. But otherwise, there's always a chance that they'll get lucky.
No, you don't.
... WABBIT season!
It's the logical conclusion that is reached by reflecting on what the rules are supposed to represent, which is a state of constant attack-dodge-parry-move in continuous time.
You're not making sense here.
Um, pretty much, yes. What do you think someone who's confronted by an invisible attacker, and hasn't managed to pinpoint them, is going to do?
Although in terms of game mechanics, it's not _every_ square that gets attacked. Note that you still have to choose the correct square in which to make the AoO, like with any attack. If you choose right, you got lucky and can move on to the 50% miss chance. Otherwise, the AoO is wasted.
Where exactly does it state this?
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Wall of Iron, Prsimatic Spray, or Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, then.
-Hyp.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Quicker than the Eye and AoO
And this has nothing to do with making AoO's, which is what is under discussion.
But you don't necessarily know that they have even dropped their guard to allow an AoO to take place.
Hey, you started with it. *shrug*
Where do you get that this is what the rules are supposed to represent?
That's pretty much my point. I'm glad you agree.
Stop attacking empty air, keep your guard up, and ready an attack against the first thing that attacks you. If they attack you in melee, you know what square they are in for that instant. You also know what direction a ranged attack is coming from, and can charge the square you think it originated from.
In addition, almost anything they do that can provoke an AoO should have a spot or listen check associated with it, to at least give you a clue that they are doing something out of the ordinary. In many cases it won't be a high DC.
So if you are targetting the square in front of you, and they are actually behind you, how do you know they provoked an AoO?
Since by your reasoning you are already making constant attacks, how do you know which attack suddenlty become an AoO?
By your reasoning, if you have an invisible person in your threatened area and guessed wrong about which square they occupy, it will still take your only AoO for the round if they take an action that would normally provoke an AoO and you choose to attack.
Even though you didn't see or hear anything that would distinguish that particular attack from any of the other "threatening attacks" that you have been making, you can no longer make AoO's for the rest of the round.
And if someone you actually can see moves through your area after that magic moment, you can't take a whack at them, because you suddenly made a "real" attack against something you couldn't see or hear. (This of course assumes that you don't have Combat Reflexes.)
I can just see it:
DM: You know there is an invisible creature nearby.
Player: Where?
DM: You don't know. You heard him off to your left somewhere, but he's within reach of your sword.
Player: I start attacking all the squares to my left side. Even though I only have one attack per round.
DM: What square are you attacking?
Player: To my left, and up one.
DM: You hit air.
Player: I keep up a constant stream of attacks against the air in case he drops his guard.
DM: He's doing something that will provoke an AoO.
Player: What is he doing?
DM: You have no clue. You just somehow sense that his guard is down. What square are you attacking?
Player: Uh... the one directly to my left!
DM: You hit empty air. Suddenly, an Orc Fighter runs out from cover, right past you, and stops about 5 feet away.
Player: I attack it!
DM: You can't, you already used your AoO for the round.
Player: Against what! I didn't see or hear anything!
DM: *shrug* It's your turn.
Player: I attack the orc.
DM: You hit it, but it manages to survive the blow.
DM: The invisible orc arcane trickster attacks you from the right. You blew your listen check last round as he tumbled past you last round and cast a Silent and Stilled spell right next to you.
Player: Then how did I make an AoO against him when I didn't hear him move past me or cast the spell?
DM: You just sensed that he had a vulnerable moment. Even though you didn't know where he was and couldn't see or hear him. PC's are clairvoyant that way.
PHB, page 122. "Sometimes, however, a combatant in a melee lets her guard down, ans she is not on the defensive as usual. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free."
That's under normal circumstances. Now, if you are not aware of their lapse in defense, how can you know to take advantage of it?
hong said:
And this has nothing to do with making AoO's, which is what is under discussion.
But you don't necessarily know that they have even dropped their guard to allow an AoO to take place.
Hey, you started with it. *shrug*
Where do you get that this is what the rules are supposed to represent?
That's pretty much my point. I'm glad you agree.
Stop attacking empty air, keep your guard up, and ready an attack against the first thing that attacks you. If they attack you in melee, you know what square they are in for that instant. You also know what direction a ranged attack is coming from, and can charge the square you think it originated from.
In addition, almost anything they do that can provoke an AoO should have a spot or listen check associated with it, to at least give you a clue that they are doing something out of the ordinary. In many cases it won't be a high DC.
So if you are targetting the square in front of you, and they are actually behind you, how do you know they provoked an AoO?
Since by your reasoning you are already making constant attacks, how do you know which attack suddenlty become an AoO?
By your reasoning, if you have an invisible person in your threatened area and guessed wrong about which square they occupy, it will still take your only AoO for the round if they take an action that would normally provoke an AoO and you choose to attack.
Even though you didn't see or hear anything that would distinguish that particular attack from any of the other "threatening attacks" that you have been making, you can no longer make AoO's for the rest of the round.
And if someone you actually can see moves through your area after that magic moment, you can't take a whack at them, because you suddenly made a "real" attack against something you couldn't see or hear. (This of course assumes that you don't have Combat Reflexes.)
I can just see it:
DM: You know there is an invisible creature nearby.
Player: Where?
DM: You don't know. You heard him off to your left somewhere, but he's within reach of your sword.
Player: I start attacking all the squares to my left side. Even though I only have one attack per round.
DM: What square are you attacking?
Player: To my left, and up one.
DM: You hit air.
Player: I keep up a constant stream of attacks against the air in case he drops his guard.
DM: He's doing something that will provoke an AoO.
Player: What is he doing?
DM: You have no clue. You just somehow sense that his guard is down. What square are you attacking?
Player: Uh... the one directly to my left!
DM: You hit empty air. Suddenly, an Orc Fighter runs out from cover, right past you, and stops about 5 feet away.
Player: I attack it!
DM: You can't, you already used your AoO for the round.
Player: Against what! I didn't see or hear anything!
DM: *shrug* It's your turn.
Player: I attack the orc.
DM: You hit it, but it manages to survive the blow.
DM: The invisible orc arcane trickster attacks you from the right. You blew your listen check last round as he tumbled past you last round and cast a Silent and Stilled spell right next to you.
Player: Then how did I make an AoO against him when I didn't hear him move past me or cast the spell?
DM: You just sensed that he had a vulnerable moment. Even though you didn't know where he was and couldn't see or hear him. PC's are clairvoyant that way.
PHB, page 122. "Sometimes, however, a combatant in a melee lets her guard down, ans she is not on the defensive as usual. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free."
That's under normal circumstances. Now, if you are not aware of their lapse in defense, how can you know to take advantage of it?
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hong said:
The rules are pretty clear that the only thing that prevents you from making a Relex save is not being able to move.
Even if you don't know it's coming, as long as you are mobile you can attempt a reflex save.
(DMG, page 76, Evasion)
While I personally think you should be penalized for being blind (because I play a spellcaster who likes to use the blindness spell a lot), but I couldn't find anything that would justify penalizing or taking away a reflex save. (Although DM's are of course able to apply a circumstance penalty if they choose.)
I just chalk it up as a game balance over reality issue, and rationalize it whichever way makes the most sense for the effect in question.
Hower, given that there are so many ways to avoid AoO's in the game already, I don't see being able to take an AoO against opponents you have not spotted or heard (and don't know the position of) as a game balance over reality issue.
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
Hypersmurf said:
Yes.
Why?
Under the conditions summary in the DMG pg. 83-84, it does not say under either "blinded" or "deafened" that a character automatically fails Reflex saving throws when either blinded or deafened or both.
Actually, you don't. You knew he was around last round. You know he might be around this round. (In order to know for sure, you have to make your Listen check.)
Well, actually, yes it is.
Hypersmurf said:
Wall of Iron: You feel the rush of displaced are as it falls over. You instinctively "go with the flow" and try to follow the escaping air.
Prismatic spray: They have a lot of different effects. You might smell the acid from the orange beam, feel the heat from the red beam, or smell the ozone/feel the static from the yellow beam. The other effects don't have reflex saves.
Otilukes resilient sphere: I'm actually interested in how you justify making a reflex save against a sphere of force that forms around you even when you aren't blind and deaf. The only reason I can see getting a save for this spell is because the spell says you get a save.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Right. The rules don't say Blindness or Deafness affects reflex saves, and you're happy to let someone dodge a beam of light they can't see because they smell ozone and feel static.
And yet you require someone to make a Listen check to be allowed to make an AoO against a target they can't see (despite the rules not stating that invisibility affects eligibility for AoOs)?
Why not an Alchemy or Spot check to smell the ozone to be allowed to make a reflex save? Or require the Scent feat, which allows someone to locate things he can't see by smell?
-Hyp.
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