Quicker than the Eye and AoO

[Caliban]

Right. The rules don't say Blindness or Deafness affects reflex saves, and you're happy to let someone dodge a beam of light they can't see because they smell ozone and feel static.

The rules pretty specifically state you get to make a reflex save even against attacks you aren't aware of. Even if it doesn't make sense. So you can rationalize whatever way makes the most sense for the effect in question, since you have to allow it by the rules.

And yet you require someone to make a Listen check to be allowed to make an AoO against a target they can't see (despite the rules not stating that invisibility affects eligibility for AoOs)?

Since the rules don't specifically state that you can make an AoO against a target you can't see, and listen/spot checks are one of the things that allow you to detect targets you can't see, yes.

Why not an Alchemy or Spot check to smell the ozone to be allowed to make a reflex save? Or require the Scent feat, which allows someone to locate things he can't see by smell?

-Hyp.

Alchemy takes a standard action to perform, and I don't see how Spot has anything to do with smelling something.

If you happen to have the Scent ability, you can auotomatically pinpoint anything within 5' of you. I'd probably allow them to make an AoO.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Since the rules don't specifically state that you can make an AoO against a target you can't see, and listen/spot checks are one of the things that allow you to detect targets you can't see, yes.

The rules do state that you can make an attack against a target you can't see. You choose a square, and roll a 50% miss chance.

There's nothing to stop a paranoid deciding to attack a square at random against the possibility that there's an invisible creature there. If he happens to be right, good for him. No Spot check required. The Spot check would confirm the presence of a creature, but the paranoid doesn't need proof, he just needs a hunch. An extremely good Spot check would confirm the location of the creature. The paranoid doesn't need to know that - he can take a guess and swing.

The mechanic for making an attack against a non-pinpointed invisible creature is clear. An AoO is an attack. Voila. A mechanic for making an AoO against a non-pinpointed invisible creature.

Spot or Listen would remove the need to guess the square, sure.

I don't see how Spot has anything to do with smelling something.

"You can make a Spot check every time you have an opportunity to notice something in a reactive manner."

Elves and half-elves get Spot bonuses because of their keen senses. Plural.

Spot may be described somewhere as being a purely visual skill, but if it is, I don't know where...

If you happen to have the Scent ability, you can auotomatically pinpoint anything within 5' of you. I'd probably allow them to make an AoO.

With Scent, a character would know where the invisible creature is... but how does Scent help him know a weapon is being sheathed? Your treatment of AoOs requires him to perceive the action that provokes the AoO, and Scent won't help.

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

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And this has nothing to do with making AoO's, which is what is under discussion.

An AoO is an attack. Targeting an AoO follows all the regular rules for targeting an attack. Hello in there!

But you don't necessarily know that they have even dropped their guard to allow an AoO to take place.

You. Don't. Need. To. Know. They. Dropped. Their. Guard.

Hey, you started with it. *shrug*

No, you started it.

... WABBIT SEASON!

Where do you get that this [combat in continuous time] is what the rules are supposed to represent?

I suppose the rules are supposed to represent Picasso's _Guernica_ then, or something? I never knew the PHB was an example of expressionist abstract art. All is clear now!

That's pretty much my point. I'm glad you agree.

Wimp.

Stop attacking empty air, keep your guard up, and ready an attack against the first thing that attacks you.

You can do that, _and_ still threaten all squares around you. There's nothing to say that when you ready, you aren't also making careful, probing attacks into the immediate vicinity.

If they attack you in melee, you know what square they are in for that instant. You also know what direction a ranged attack is coming from, and can charge the square you think it originated from.

Irrelevant.

In addition, almost anything they do that can provoke an AoO should have a spot or listen check associated with it, to at least give you a clue that they are doing something out of the ordinary. In many cases it won't be a high DC.

Irrelevant.

So if you are targetting the square in front of you, and they are actually behind you, how do you know they provoked an AoO?

Your _character_ doesn't know it was an AoO. It's indistinguishable from any other swings they make for the rest of the round. _You_ may know it's an AoO, but that's something different. Please not to confuse player knowledge with character knowledge.

Since by your reasoning you are already making constant attacks, how do you know which attack suddenlty become an AoO?

Your question is based on faulty reasoning.

By your reasoning, if you have an invisible person in your threatened area and guessed wrong about which square they occupy, it will still take your only AoO for the round if they take an action that would normally provoke an AoO and you choose to attack.

If you chose to do it, yes. Tell me again where someone must automatically take every AoO they are presented with.

Even though you didn't see or hear anything that would distinguish that particular attack from any of the other "threatening attacks" that you have been making, you can no longer make AoO's for the rest of the round.

If you were stupid, yes. Tell me again where someone must automatically take every AoO they are presented with.

And if someone you actually can see moves through your area after that magic moment, you can't take a whack at them, because you suddenly made a "real" attack against something you couldn't see or hear. (This of course assumes that you don't have Combat Reflexes.)

You got distracted by swinging wildly at the invisible guy. You were stupid. Try again next round, if you survive.

[snip bizarro example]

PHB, page 122. "Sometimes, however, a combatant in a melee lets her guard down, ans she is not on the defensive as usual. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free."

That's under normal circumstances. Now, if you are not aware of their lapse in defense, how can you know to take advantage of it?

Where exactly does it say combatants must be aware of the lapse in defense to take advantage of it?

 

[Caliban]

The rules do state that you can make an attack against a target you can't see. You choose a square, and roll a 50% miss chance.


There's nothing to stop a paranoid deciding to attack a square at random against the possibility that there's an invisible creature there. If he happens to be right, good for him. No Spot check required. The Spot check would confirm the presence of a creature, but the paranoid doesn't need proof, he just needs a hunch. An extremely good Spot check would confirm the location of the creature. The paranoid doesn't need to know that - he can take a guess and swing.

Nothing I have said changes that. Make random attacks all you want. But an AoO is not a random attack.

The mechanic for making an attack against a non-pinpointed invisible creature is clear. An AoO is an attack. Voila. A mechanic for making an AoO against a non-pinpointed invisible creature.

An AoO is a reaction to somone lowering their guard. If you don't know they lowered their guard, you don't react. Viola.


As for the rest of it, read my response to hong, because I'm not going through it all again.

"You can make a Spot check every time you have an opportunity to notice something in a reactive manner."

Elves and half-elves get Spot bonuses because of their keen senses. Plural.

Spot may be described somewhere as being a purely visual skill, but if it is, I don't know where...

Way to take things out of context there.

Last I checked, Elves get Spot and Listen and Search bonuses because of their keen senses. Sight and Hearing are two senses, as in plural. There's your "keen senses". (PHB, page 16)

Arguing that Spot is used to smell things is just incredibly weak.

With Scent, a character would know where the invisible creature is... but how does Scent help him know a weapon is being sheathed? Your treatment of AoOs requires him to perceive the action that provokes the AoO, and Scent won't help.

-Hyp.

Whatever dude. I was just saying that I wouldn't make a big deal about it, since they know exactly where their target is.

Technically I would still require a Listen check, and Scent would just negate the miss chance on his attack. Happy now?

Your starting to act pretty hostile. I think I'm done discussing this with you.

 

[hong]

Unless your intention is to make the attacker make Spot/Listen checks _every round_ to attack someone who's invisible?

Well, actually, yes it is.

How very curious of you.

 

[Caliban]

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A lot of crap snipped

And you are acting hostile and negative as well. Conversation over.

Have a happy new year.

 

[hong]

Nothing I have said changes that. Make random attacks all you want. But an AoO is not a random attack.

Why not?

An AoO is a reaction to somone lowering their guard.

In game mechanical terms, yes.

If you don't know they lowered their guard, you don't react. Viola.

This does not follow.

Your starting to act pretty hostile. I think I'm done discussing this with you.

Cal, _I'm_ the bad cop. Hyp is the good cop. Please don't mix us up.

 

[hong]

Jeez Hyp, I think we made Caliban's head explodiate a bit too soon.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

How very curious of you.

I aim to please.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Your starting to act pretty hostile.

[blink]

I am?

-Hyp.