Racially diverse artwork in D&D...does it influence you?

[Barastrondo]

I also wanted to take the time to say that I think White Wolf is one of the better companies when it comes to showcasing racial diversity in artwork, not only in their World of Darkness but also with their Exalted line... I can honestly say as a black gamer this was one of the things (along with a really cool setting) that drew me to Exalted. First by including within their world of Creation a variety of cultures to draw on and secondly through the artwork.

Glad you appreciate it! Actually, Geoff Grabowski deliberately set out to get a black woman as the central character on the cover of a major fantasy line, in his own — well, I guess some would call it "subversive" way. And Exalted sold like hotcakes. That was really, really rewarding.

This is what fantasy should be, IMHO, an all-inclusive genre. Why do dark-skinned people have to come from an african-esque land, when there are plenty of fantasy games (including D&D) who happily mish-mash euro-centric and sometimes non euro-centric cultures into something totally different from any real world examples? Please tell me what real world culture is Eberron based on? The inability to accept that an adventurer could be dark-skinned in D&D, without him coming from a pseudo-african nation, is IMHO a lack of imagination on the part of those who can't accept it. For an example in the real world just look at Rome...a multitude of ethnicities brought under their rule interacted on various levels throughout Rome's history. With the predominance of ancient empire's in the default D&D setting, I don't see why the same thing occurring is any less "believable" or would actually turn people off of purchasing products.

What I tend to perceive is that people just don't grow up on the same fantasy any more. Hell, the sheer popularity of manga means there are all kinds of people growing up comfortable with non-European ideas of fantasy. Writers like China Mieville and Susannah Clarke are vigorously disproving the idea that if it's not some Tolkien-derivative medieval-esque pastiche, nobody will read it.

I do wish Hollywood would be a little less head-up-its-ass about this sort of thing, though. I would probably murder a dude to see a big-screen WETA-driven adaptation of the Ramayana, or hell, even Prince of Persia with a Persian-looking actor. Hell, I just watched the 1940 Thief of Baghdad — why in the world is 2008 Hollywood still not as progressive as 1940 England? (Yeah, there's white people playing Middle Easterners, but the main character is clearly not white, and that movie did great.)

SIDE NOTE: Ethan, you guys should really give some thought to making a more streamlined and simpler system for Exalted, it's a great game but can be pretty hard to get new players into. If you guys did something like this it would become my default fantasy game in a minute.

Not my power to achieve (boy do I have enough work with the WoD), but I'll pass the idea on, sure.

 

[Afrodyte]

So a mixed-ethnicity city where nobody cares about race but everybody cares about religion and culture *is* more authentic than racism for the period.

Uh-oh, you said the R-word.

Anyway, thanks for saying this. To further your example, in ancient Greece, a barbarian was someone who didn't speak or dress Greek (and thus were completely savage and uncivilized). Once someone spoke Greek and adopted a Greek name, that person was a Greek no matter where they came from. I think the same was true in Rome. If a person spoke Latin, dressed Roman, and held Roman values, that person was a Roman.

 

[Klaus]

To move the topic back from real-world analogies:

I think having ethnically diverse people fits, BUT, you have to explain where these ethnicities come from. For instance, a culture that developed in open plains with lots of winds will eventually develop the narrow eyes of Asians. People coming from a sun-bathed land will be darker-skinned (not because they tan, but because those born with darker skin will fare better under a strong sun), etc.

So before you have ethnic variety, you need geographic variety.

 

[Afrodyte]

I think having ethnically diverse people fits, BUT, you have to explain where these ethnicities come from. For instance, a culture that developed in open plains with lots of winds will eventually develop the narrow eyes of Asians. People coming from a sun-bathed land will be darker-skinned (not because they tan, but because those born with darker skin will fare better under a strong sun), etc.

So before you have ethnic variety, you need geographic variety.

Why?

In worlds where magic trumps (or at least significantly influences) physics, chemistry, geology, biology, and genetics, why is it so hard to imagine a dark-skinned person being native to a pseudo-European culture?

I'm not talking about worlds drawn from a specific mythology. Those are clearly not generic. I'm talking about generic D&D worlds.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

What I tend to perceive is that people just don't grow up on the same fantasy any more. Hell, the sheer popularity of manga means there are all kinds of people growing up comfortable with non-European ideas of fantasy. Writers like China Mieville and Susannah Clarke are vigorously disproving the idea that if it's not some Tolkien-derivative medieval-esque pastiche, nobody will read it.

Thinking back to China Mieville, I remember he described Isaac as being brown-skin and pudgy. Which made me think of this fat Indian guy I saw around all the time. Which in the context of New Crobuzon works because it's essentially London.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

To move the topic back from real-world analogies:

I think having ethnically diverse people fits, BUT, you have to explain where these ethnicities come from. For instance, a culture that developed in open plains with lots of winds will eventually develop the narrow eyes of Asians. People coming from a sun-bathed land will be darker-skinned (not because they tan, but because those born with darker skin will fare better under a strong sun), etc.

So before you have ethnic variety, you need geographic variety.

That's essential, because it's where you need world building, when it's become the trend right now to attack world-building.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Why is it that Asian, African, Middle Eastern, etc. types should be shoehorned into pseudo-european settings as if the complex and interesting cultures aren't as compelling as generic pseudo-european fantasy tropes?

I think that the idea that all these different types of folks made magically to be blended together without rhyme or reason does a disservice to them and the depth that diverse cultures can add to a fantasy setting. I see folks asking "Why can't dark skinned people just be native to pseudo-europe?" (to paraphrase). They can be, but then who are the folks of the tropics, the East, the Southern lands, the deserts?

What would be really, really bland would be a weird equal blending of all available human ethnic types in all regions despite the predominant cultures of the are. If the racial/ethnic makeup of fantasy Asia, Africa, Arabia, etc. were the same as fantasy Europe (Vanilla D&D assumption) then why not just make the entire setting one gigantic, boring European analogue. Ethnicity of the local natives is part of what makes the non-pseudoeuropean regions different from the baseline assumptions.

Some of this discussion seems based on a unconscious/unintentional assumption of cultural superiority in regards to Tolkienish fantasy Europe. Why isn't anyone saying that we should shoehorn caucasians into Kara-Tur, Asian types into Zhakara, or Native Americans into Nyambe? It would look utterly inauthentic and would destroy what makes for real diversity of the setting in general.


Wyrmshadows

 

[Barastrondo]

The thing is that when you come down to it, fantasy as a whole isn't about speculative medieval cultures with magic, or European myth cycles, or anything like that. Fantasy is about what the author is interested in. If you're really interested in odd aspects of medieval life like, say, the trivia surrounding types of polearms, a big list of polearms will make it into your fantasy RPG. If you're a linguist with a thing for myth cycles, myth cycles and language will be key to your work. If you're interested in a world with the kind of ethnic mix you grew up around (like LeGuin or Mieville), that will influence your fantasy world.

So if you're interested in a very specific Euro-medieval type of pseudo-speculative fantasy, yes, it will be jarring to have a strong ethnic mix and no real attempt to rationalize that with your particular vision of what Euro-medieval fantasy should look like. However, D&D is rather bigger than any one fantasy vision, and kind of needs to be to appeal.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Why?

In worlds where magic trumps (or at least significantly influences) physics, chemistry, geology, biology, and genetics, why is it so hard to imagine a dark-skinned person being native to a pseudo-European culture?

I'm not talking about worlds drawn from a specific mythology. Those are clearly not generic. I'm talking about generic D&D worlds.

Lets not handwave everything. Where there is magic therefore anything goes. Sure, you can do this but why would you want to? As someone said in a recent post, ethnic diversity is born of geographic diversity. The darker an individual's skin tone the more tropical the ancestry of the individual in question. The converse is also true.

What possible purpose would it serve to change that reality by some arbitrary handwave? Why is mindless admixture at the hands of the gods a good design goal when it does nothing but add a veneer of superficial diversity to eurocentric fantasy tropes.


Wyrmshadows

 

[Wyrmshadows]

The thing is that when you come down to it, fantasy as a whole isn't about speculative medieval cultures with magic, or European myth cycles, or anything like that. Fantasy is about what the author is interested in. If you're really interested in odd aspects of medieval life like, say, the trivia surrounding types of polearms, a big list of polearms will make it into your fantasy RPG. If you're a linguist with a thing for myth cycles, myth cycles and language will be key to your work. If you're interested in a world with the kind of ethnic mix you grew up around (like LeGuin or Mieville), that will influence your fantasy world.

So if you're interested in a very specific Euro-medieval type of pseudo-speculative fantasy, yes, it will be jarring to have a strong ethnic mix and no real attempt to rationalize that with your particular vision of what Euro-medieval fantasy should look like. However, D&D is rather bigger than any one fantasy vision, and kind of needs to be to appeal.

You're right that D&D needs to appeal broadly and there is nothing actually european about D&D fantasy settings because most don't have a depth of culture to speak of, just enough to make the setting believable. However, when even the thin veneer of culture provided by traditional D&D fantasy settings is entirely european cliches from manner of dress, types of weapons used (when not fantastic weapons), armor worn (when non-fastastic), governments, royal titles, common dress for average member of the population, food offered at inns, building types, etc. there is certainly a european assumption in regards to vanilla D&D settings when we aren't discussing either the fantastic or the non-human.

In fact, outside of the completely fantastical or non-human elements of the game, I would argue that traditional D&D is as European as Tolkien or any other western fantasy. This is why settings like Zhakara, Maztica, Kara-Tur, Athas (utterly non-earthlike), and others stand out so strongly in contrast to D&D's default cultural assumptions.

I'm a big fan of diversity, but diversity that is deeper than cosmetic changes overlying european tropes.



Wyrmshadows