Racially diverse artwork in D&D...does it influence you?

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

A lack of diversity in art makes me question the collective imagination of a game company.

It's worth noting that the people making the big money in fantasy gaming nowadays -- the MMO guys -- are all very consciously multi-culti, whether it's heroes of various ethnic types in Diablo and Diablo II, or having an island nation of African-American-looking characters be the best spellcasters in the world in EverQuest I. Someone thinks this is worth doing.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

I think this is pretty silly, and says more about you than the FR, frankly.

The Dales and the North are full of "pale caucasian"-types as the natives, sure, but they're also inhabited by MANY adventurers from foriegn lands, and travellers from afar. This is something that's a key feature of the Realms (and why it's not necessarily a good fit for PoL outside the North), the lengths and depths of trade and traders. Waterdeep is an extremely cosmopolitan city for example, as are many other places in the North and on the Sword Coast.

Traders and adventurers will be the bulk of the "non-locals", and many of them will settle down (indeed, or have specifically done so), not "immigrants and tourists". That's wierd 20th-century nonsense. I don't see much "mass immigration" or even "immigration" in the sense you mean it at all in the FR. Nor is there "tourism" in either the modern or original sense. There's certainly travel and trade, though.

Quit being so pedantic. Tourism = travelers (ie. adventurers/wanderers) and immigrants= emigres (sp?). I didn't claim immigration equals mass immigration. Read exactly and comment on what I actually wrote.

Trade brings various nationalities into contact to be sure. Trade also makes the trade hub cities very diverse and in some rare instances the foreign influence can eclipse that of the native culture. This isn't the norm of course. However, outside of trade hubs, nations generally tend to be homogenous. The more distant from the trade hub, the more homogenous the countryside becomes.

The trading class of non-locals is of the trading class which is always of a limited number and in no way equals the numbers of local common folk. Even when a non-local presence is powerful there are usually wards within a city that become enculturated with a new flavor. This is how is nearly always works. The local ethnic demographic is nearly always far larger than even a strong non-local population. This is as it should be. Only when there is conflict and conquest does a native population find itself ecliped utterly by a non native ethnic demographic.

Cosmopolitan doesn't mean that Waterdeep is as Asian in flavor as the Forbidden City. Cosmoplitan doesn't mean that Waterdeep looks like a spitting image of a major city in Nyambe. Cosmopolitan is a rich diversity that causes a mingling of customs, cultures and boodlines, it does not mean that the non-locals outnumber the locals. This can happen, but I have never seen any indication that in Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, etc. are more diverse than well mixed trading centers of the medieval era.

Didn't Venice have more Italians as a population than any other ethnic group despite the fact that it was one of the greatest trading cities of all times? I would argue that caucasian Waterdhavians (and the natives of any such city) would naturally outnumber non-locals signifigantly. I don't know what manner of FR you are running but if trading concerns wouldn't be enough to shift the demographics to a degree for non-locals to equal/outnumber native in population...adventurers aren't going to make a dent in the numbers.

So before you decide to question my psychology (I think this is pretty silly, and says more about you than the FR, frankly) look at the issue logically and demonstrate how mistaken I am.

One way for non-natives to eventually outnumber native populations is via displacement such as the refugees of a kingdom in chaos. However, in such cases, these wouldn't actually displace but would be added to the census rolls if (and its a big if) a city/nation would allow these folks into their domain. They may not because they simply cannot afford to feed thousands of refugees.

I am all for diversity, but I bet you Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Baldur's Gate are largely caucasian just like major cities in Zhakara, Shou Lung, Nyambe, Maztica, etc. are predominately inhabited by members of the local ethnic/racial demographic.



Wyrmshadows

 

[mmadsen]

I think we should realize that one half of our fantasy heritage flows through Tolkien's works, which were an attempt to bring back medieval romances, like the tales of King Arthur and his knights and of Charlemagne and his Paladins. We shouldn't be surprised if such fantasy features a northern European cast -- with one exotic Moor for flavor.

The other half of our fantasy heritage flows through pulp sword & sorcery, which inherits quite a bit from adventure stories more grounded in history and then-contemporary travels. Thus, such stories might feature a white hero, but they might also feature his diverse cast of sidekicks from around the globe, fighting off exotic villains and henchmen from all kinds of racial and cultural backgrounds.

What bothers me is when it's assumed that ethnic people must be depicted with the tropes and accoutrements that we associate with that ethnicity in the real world. There's no reason, in fantasy artwork, why an Asian-looking wizard can't be dressed like a classical fantasy wizard, rather than looking like Mako from Conan the Barbarian.

Of course there's a reason for quasi-Asian characters in fantasy to dress and behave in a quasi-Asian manner. The whole point in making them quasi-Asian is to conjure up a sense of Asian-ness. It's a shortcut.

Pulp sword & sorcery fiction uses this all the time, so that the writer can tell an exciting story without dwelling on the esoteric details of the story. If I call the locale Vendhya and mention elephants, everyone knows to fill in the gaps with quasi-Indian details.

If you do in fact want to disassociate people from their real-life races and cultures, go the E.R. Burroughs route, and have red men, black men, etc., who are explicitly described as not resembling American Indians or Africans.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Quit being so pedantic. Tourism = travelers (ie. adventurers/wanderers) and immigrants= emigres (sp?). I didn't claim immigration equals mass immigration. Read exactly and comment on what I actually wrote.

You're confused. I did "read exactly" and commented on what you "actually wrote". What you want, though, given your "=" is for me to have read into what you wrote and assumed that you meant something different from exactly what was written. I don't think it's remotely pedantic, either. You didn't even mention traders (who are extremely distinct from both "tourists" and "immigrants"), but them and sailors are likely to the vast majorities of the non-local ethnicities in any area in a medieval or renaissence setting. You didn't mention sailors either, I note, who again, are neither tourists nor immigrants. So what it looks like to me is that you cam at this from a very 20th-century perspective, and attempting to correct that after the fact by telling me to "read exactly", when my decision to "read exactly" is precisely what upset you

Cosmopolitan doesn't mean that Waterdeep is as Asian in flavor as the Forbidden City. Cosmoplitan doesn't mean that Waterdeep looks like a spitting image of a major city in Nyambe. Cosmopolitan is a rich diversity that causes a mingling of customs, cultures and boodlines, it does not mean that the non-locals outnumber the locals. This can happen, but I have never seen any indication that in Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, etc. are more diverse than well mixed trading centers of the medieval era.

What are you even rattling on about? I fail to see how this has any bearing whatsoever on any post I've made in this entire thread. What's your point here? I've seen plenty of indication that Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate are "more diverse" than say, London, or Paris in 1300AD. The have people of several demihuman groups (some of who are from hundreds or thousands of miles away), as well as humans from regions like Amn and Calimshan who are citizens. Given the goods that are traded by Aurora's Whole Realms guide, some of which are extremely exotic and unlikely to be viable in Northern climes, one can only assume the Realms has extremely extensive trade in a wide variety of goods. The Sword Coast seems more comparable to the Mediterranean coast than the European coast.

Didn't Venice have more Italians as a population than any other ethnic group despite the fact that it was one of the greatest trading cities of all times? I would argue that caucasian Waterdhavians (and the natives of any such city) would naturally outnumber non-locals signifigantly. I don't know what manner of FR you are running but if trading concerns wouldn't be enough to shift the demographics to a degree for non-locals to equal/outnumber native in population...adventurers aren't going to make a dent in the numbers.

Again, what are you talking about? How does this have any bearing on anything? It doesn't contradict anything I've said. You seem to be carrying on argument with someone else, yet you're quoting me. It's rather confusing, to say the least. Again, adventurers won't "make a dent", but they'll spice things up, to be sure.

I am all for diversity, but I bet you Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Baldur's Gate are largely caucasian just like major cities in Zhakara, Shou Lung, Nyambe, Maztica, etc. are predominately inhabited by members of the local ethnic/racial demographic.

Really? It very much sounded like you're not all for diversity when you said:

And to add, WoTC 3e R&D could piss off for thinking to pander to the narrowest and most ignorant denominator. Maybe I am blind to the reality of the world (never thought I was) but it never occurred to me that WoTC R&D would think along these lines. Very disappointing actually. Now can I tell you how I really feel?

I have a somewhat dim view of WoTC right now...thanks for validating those feelings with something more relevant than game mechanics. 4e may not be my cup o' tea, but ultimately who gives a rats arse. There are other games. However the very idea that racial considerations were a factor in 3e's art is beyond appalling to me.

Can I tell you how really feel? Well, I'm not psychic, but as you're asking me, I'm guessing that you really feel that any significant portrayal of non-local ethnicities in the FR a bad thing in some obscure way, and that support the sword and sorcery tradition of multi-ethnic heroes is "pandering to the lowest common denominator". I sure didn't realize you hated S&S quite that much!

 

[DrSkull]

The first is clearly african-american

I don't know, he looks more Afro-Canadian to me. Maybe Afro-Caribbean. On third hand, he might look a little more African-african.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Ruin Explorer, I think you are reading selectively to be combative. However I am willing to grant you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are reading the context of my words wrong.

WoTC's 3e R&D team believed that ethnic diversity would harm sales. So my reaction was thus:

And to add, WoTC 3e R&D could piss off for thinking to pander to the narrowest and most ignorant denominator. Maybe I am blind to the reality of the world (never thought I was) but it never occurred to me that WoTC R&D would think along these lines. Very disappointing actually. Now can I tell you how I really feel?

I have a somewhat dim view of WoTC right now...thanks for validating those feelings with something more relevant than game mechanics. 4e may not be my cup o' tea, but ultimately who gives a rats arse. There are other games. However the very idea that racial considerations were a factor in 3e's art is beyond appalling to me.

Tell me that the fact that I am angry about the decision to limit diversity in 3e art because the 3e R&D team felt it would limit sales makes me against diversity? Are you kidding me!?!?!?

I am ANGRY with WOTC for allowing racial concerns to limit the amount of diversity in 3e's artwork. I was responding to Imaro who wrote:

The real thing I'm wondering is, if there is an equal spread of ethnic diversity in artwork throughout the books...would it make you less inclined to buy them? It seems the R&D team for 3e felt this way and it just seems silly to me, when looking at the actual campaign worlds WotC puts out.

Am I mistaken or reading it wrong that WoTC R&D thought that diversity in 3e art would potentially hurt sales? If I am reading this correctly, you need to rethink calling me anti-diversity. Before you question my thinking you should at least know what I am referring to when you quote me.

You are completely off base.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You are completely off base.

It seems so!

 

[Wyrmshadows]

It seems so!

No problem. Your heart was in the right place, it was just that your eyes were betraying you.

Hey, we're on the same side of this issue.



Wyrmshadows

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I'm always happy when I see some non-white characters in RPG illustrations. As far as I know, all my immediate ancestors were Anglo-Saxon (or, as we sometimes say here in Australia, Anglo-Celtic), but I grew up surrounded by non-Anglo people. Hell, even when I lived in a small country town in Victoria, I was friends with a kid whose family was from India, and when we moved to Sydney, I ended up at a high school with something like 40% east and south-east Asian students, either Australian- or foreign-born.

I'm also married to a woman whose father is Filipino and whose mother has Polish, British, American Indian, and German heritage, so I really appreciate efforts like Todd Lockwood's to depict mixed-race people.

I'm a strong proponent of the idea that there is absolutely no reason why a game setting with a medieval European level of technological or social development should have to have a medieval European-looking population (unless you're talking Yrth from GURPS which is actually literally populated with human ethnic groups magically transported from Earth at various times in the past, and even then SJ Games had the brains to include some non-European peoples).

That's one of the reasons I really like Eberron; it's not pounded into your brain, though it could stand to be a little more explicit (especially in the art), but it's a fact in the setting that humanity expresses an ethnic mixture all over Khorvaire, because they're all the descendants of a multi-ethnic Sarlonan diaspora. You can't argue that people in Karrnath should look German or Scandinavian because it's a cold northern country, because the fact is that humans haven't lived there for the span of time required to produce those kind of ethnic "adaptations".

Wizards of the Coast isn't the worst company when it comes to diversity in their illustrations, but they're not fantastic about it. The artwork still reflects a European dominance, and I think that's a shame.

 

[mmadsen]

...is too much racially diversity artwork in D&D really that much of a factor that it would affect whether you bought the game or not?

I suppose it's a turn-off when it feels entirely forced, either as part of a conscious agenda or simply from a narrow 21st-century American (or British, Aussie, etc.) worldview.

I must admit, it feels particularly odd to have a "white" halfling next to a "black" halfling, or whatever. (Together, they fight crime!)