Rain of Blows

[Arbitrary]

At a possible three attacks it is already top of the line for encounter powers of a similar level range. At four possible attacks it is no longer even in encounter territory, it's better than most dailies. Also, other powers that have that many attacks will designate secondary and tertiary.

Again, I agree completely that the wording is such that two primary hits means two secondary attacks but I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see it get stepped on in a later FAQ update.

 

[KarinsDad]

What Hyp said.


With regard to balance, check out Sweeping Blow listed below Rain of Blows.

Typically, it gets 2 to 4 attacks (it would not be used against a single target) with a maximum of 8 attacks (and with the right weapon, it gets a serious bonus to hit).

Compared to Rain of Blows which is 2 to 4 attacks when using an often somewhat inferior weapon.

 

[Arbitrary]

Comparing a burst 1 under ideal circumstances is just silly.

 

[tombowings]

Rain of Blows with a longspear is pretty good. It even makes a shortsword worth wielding, which I think is a GOOD thing.

 

[KarinsDad]

Comparing a burst 1 under ideal circumstances is just silly.

True. But, how many times does a Fighter have 2 or 3 or 4 opponents around him at least once per encounter? Often with the exception of solos.

Melee enemies often try to flank a Fighter, hence, he often has more than one around him.

Additionally, if he is using one of the four most common types of weapons, he gets +1/2 Str to hit with Sweeping Blow which means he hits more often.

Let's take an example of a heavy flail with Rain of Blows against one target compared to a heavy flail with Sweeping Blow against two targets (the minimum case it would be used). 50% chance to hit with Rain of Blow, 60% chance to hit with Sweeping Blow (18 Str, no magic weapon). Note: Rain of Blows also has a 15 Dex requirement for it's secondary attacks.

(.45*11+.05*16+.5(.45*11+.05*16))*2 = 17.25 average damage Rain of Blows
(.55*11+.05*16)*2 = 13.7 average damage Sweeping Blow

Rain of Blows averages 3.55 more points of damage per round.

Against 3 opponents, Sweeping Blow averages 3.3 more points of damage. Against 4 opponents, 10.15 more points, etc.

Sure, the Fighter will not always have a lot of opponents around him, but it is fairly common to have 2 opponents (where the damage with Sweeping Blow is slightly less) or 3 (where the damage with Sweeping Blow is slightly more).


Note: Without the 15 Dex or the proper weapon, Rain of Blows averages the same or less damage than Sweeping Blow against two targets.

Balance-wise, this is pretty much a wash.

 

[Arbitrary]

You've simplified things to an impossible extent to show that in an artificially constructed situation how the powers could be comparable. I don't find that to be a convincing argument of anything.

Four attack Rain of Blows, which I think is an error for the exact same reasons Daggermaster Warlocks were an error, is always good. Sweeping Blow can be better but only situationily. The Fighter who is doing his best to ensure he is getting 3+ attacks with Sweeping Blow as often as possible has to do more work, take larger risks, has an inferior power against solos, a weak power against elites, and might end up just popping a bunch of minions anyway.

It has the early Ranger melee encounter powers beat hands down and it totally puts to shame every single early Rogue encounter power. The traditional 2W + stat or two attacks at 1W + stat formula is right out the window. I'd spend the two feats to take it at level 4 100% of the time. It is just out of line, pure and simple, with other encounter powers.

 

[N8Ball]

You've simplified things to an impossible extent to show that in an artificially constructed situation how the powers could be comparable. I don't find that to be a convincing argument of anything.

How are his assumptions/simplifications impossible? He starts with the assumption that the fighter will be next to 2 enemies at some point in the fight? That seems downright likely to me.

Assuming that you have a 50% hit chance? That may be arbitrary, but it certainly doesn't shift the balance in favor of one power or another, Sweeping Blow will get a bonus to hit in any case.

He starts out with a very reasonable default where Rain of Blows is 3.5 points better. So I don't get your problem with his comparison. Sure the other situations are less likely, but they WILL happen from time to time and that makes Sweeping blow even closer in comparison than the 3.5 difference would suggest.

There are a few other underlying reasons why Sweeping Blow is a fair balance with Rain of Blows. Some of them have been mentioned above, but I will summarize.

1) Rain of Blows requires an inferior weapon while Sweeping blow can use the most common (i.e. better) Heavy Blades - Greatsword and Longsword. Sure the lesser weapon is better here, but this is only 1 turn per fight and that lesser weapon will be used on every attack you make.

2) Rain of Blows requires a secondary (at best) stat to be unusually high, Dex 15 for a fighter.

3) Rain of blows loses a lot of steam if you accidently (?) kill the primary target with either the first primary or the first secondary, because you will lose the other primary and secondary attack. In other words, this power will sometimes get shortchanged by doing it's job (?) and should NEVER used against a minion and unfortunately, Minions don't come with a posted sign, so we usually have to guess.

4) Sweeping Blow is a Close Burst attack, one of only 3 that Fighters get in the heroic tier. There are many reason to want at least 1 close attack in your repitoir and those reasons usually collect in swarms and are particularly nasty to fight. Admittedly, this is the least reason, but after reading the stats for swarms, I have bad dreams of fighting them.

...It has the early Ranger melee encounter powers beat hands down and it totally puts to shame every single early Rogue encounter power.

Powers for one class cannot be taken out of context for that class to compare. Of course this power is better than Rogue powers of the same level - Rogue powers are generally weaker than even other striker powers because the Rogue feature for striker damage is SO much better. Better here + worse there = Balance.

...and might end up just popping a bunch of minions anyway.

Popping minions? That's really important! Those bastards hurt a lot more than they have a right to and getting rid of a handful saves on a lot of pain and eventual healing powers.

Clearly these powers aren't ideal for the same situation, but I think they're quite balanced. Particularly considering that with sweeping Blow you just have to be a fighter with a Longsword to use the power to its fullest and Rain of Blows requires a stat, and a weapon (or 2 feats) that you might not have otherwise taken. That is the picture of Balance to me. Yeah you can do better with Rain of blows, but my regular fighter is going to be doing almost as good with this power and a little better all the rest of the time. that = balance to me.

 

[Arbitrary]

There isn't anything out of context about it. Student of the Sword, Novice Power, and the Rogue and his Rapier are enjoying an encounter power with 2-4 attacks that is way above anything their own class has to over for a long time.

 

[KarinsDad]

Four attack Rain of Blows, which I think is an error for the exact same reasons Daggermaster Warlocks were an error, is always good. Sweeping Blow can be better but only situationily. The Fighter who is doing his best to ensure he is getting 3+ attacks with Sweeping Blow as often as possible has to do more work, take larger risks, has an inferior power against solos, a weak power against elites, and might end up just popping a bunch of minions anyway.

Yup. He might. With an additional +2 or +3 to hit, Sweeping Blow crushes Rain of Blows versus 4 minions because it is a guaranteed 4 attacks versus Rain of Blows which with a 25% chance to hit is a 50% chance of attacking 2 minions, a 50% chance of attacking 3 minions, a 25% chance of attacking 4 minions.

Just like Rain of Blows is superior against solos, Sweeping Blow is superior against a large group of minions. On top of that, Sweeping Blow has a bonus to hit the minions that Rain of Blows does not.

That is why they are balanced. They each have a situation where they are superior.

 

[Arbitrary]

So I take it many of you are playing in campaigns where minions aren't a joke?