Rain of Blows

[DogBackward]

Rain of Blows is definitely only 3 attacks.

Note that the Secondary Attack is not part of the "Hit:" line, rather it's part of the "Weapon:" line. Therefore, it applies only once, since you're only using the power once. Also note that this means you don't actually have to hit with either of the first attacks in order to use the Secondary Attack; since it's not under the "Hit:" line, it doesn't require a hit to take effect, only that you meet the weapon and Dex. requirements.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Note that the Secondary Attack is not part of the "Hit:" line, rather it's part of the "Weapon:" line. Therefore, it applies only once, since you're only using the power once.

The Weapon line is indented under the "Hit" entry; the Weapon entry is thus modifying the Hit entry, and applies once per hit, not once for the entire power.

... versus Rain of Blows which with a 25% chance to hit is a 50% chance of attacking 2 minions, a 50% chance of attacking 3 minions, a 25% chance of attacking 4 minions.

Rain of Blows can only ever affect two minions, maximum.

Both primary attacks must be directed against a single target - the Target entry is "One creature", not "One or two creatures".

So if you have four minions and you use Rain of Blows, pick one as the Target.

First attack - it hits, the minion dies. Make a secondary attack on a second minion.
Second attack - the Target is dead, so this is wasted, and no secondary attack is possible.

Alternatively:
First attack - it misses. No secondary attack.
Second attack, versus the same target. If it hits, minion dies, make a secondary attack. If it misses, no secondary attack.

So it's only ever possible to attack two minions with Rain of Blows, never three or four.

If there's a non-minion as well, you could pick him as the primary target, and potentially hit one minion with each of your two secondary attacks. But still no more than two minions (though in this case you get two attacks on the non-minion in addition).

-Hyp.

 

[jadrax]

The Weapon line is indented under the "Hit" entry; the Weapon entry is thus modifying the Hit entry, and applies once per hit, not once for the entire power.

I would not personally place much weight on the indenting, it looks to me pretty randomly based on what looks nice. To me it seems far more likely they would have worded it along the lines of "Hit: If you are wielding weapon X,Y r Z make a secondary attack", if that was the true intention. Therefore as I read it that you always get two attacks, and gain a third with the right weapons.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would not personally place much weight on the indenting, it looks to me pretty randomly based on what looks nice. To me it seems far more likely they would have worded it along the lines of "Hit: If you are wielding weapon X,Y r Z make a secondary attack", if that was the true intention. Therefore as I read it that you always get two attacks, and gain a third with the right weapons.

So let's take Dance of Steel, Fighter 3, as an example. Do you feel that if you're wielding a heavy blade or polearm, the target is slowed whether or not you hit?

Or, for a more obvious example, Silverstep, Fighter 13. There are two Weapon entries, one indented under "Hit" (push target extra squares), and one indented under "Effect" (shift extra squares). Do you feel that if you're wielding a spear or polearm, you can shift the target a number of squares equal to your Dex modifier whether or not you hit?

-Hyp.

 

[Nail]

So I take it many of you are playing in campaigns where minions aren't a joke?

Yup.

 

[Runestar]

Typically, it gets 2 to 4 attacks (it would not be used against a single target) with a maximum of 8 attacks (and with the right weapon, it gets a serious bonus to hit).

Compared to Rain of Blows which is 2 to 4 attacks when using an often somewhat inferior weapon.

But you neglected to mention the fact that for sweeping blow, the multiple attacks are spread out evenly amongst many enemies, while for rain of blows, they can be concentrated on a single enemy.

Under most normal circumstances, I would prefer to quickly focus fire on a single enemy and take each down ASAP, rather than slowly chip away at a horde of foes. In the former, an enemy that is killed that much more quickly cannot retaliate, and I have thus benefited by taking less damage in return.

In the latter, while I may be (arguably) dealing more damage as a whole, I am also taking more damage in return, since I will have that many foes attacking me in the subsequent round. And they still fight every bit as effectively regardless of whether they are at full hp or just 1 hp. This makes sweeping blow useful only as a minion-sweeper, something which is situational at best and downright useless at worst, because to maximize its usefulness, you need your DM to use enough minions, and for them to swarm you all at one go.

This makes sweeping blow somewhat unwieldy. To maximize its potential, the fighter needs to put himself in a rather dangerous and undesirable position (even as a defender, I would prefer to limit his exposure to no more than 2 enemies at any 1 time). Conversely, no such limitations exist with rain of blows. Any time I can reach a foe, I am assured automatically of 2-4 attacks.

Basically, if you compare all the 3rd lv encounter powers a fighter gets, rain of blow's damage output vastly outstrips what the rest are capable of. Maybe not broken, but it still comes across as still being extremely strong.

 

[Victim]

But you neglected to mention the fact that for sweeping blow, the multiple attacks are spread out evenly amongst many enemies, while for rain of blows, they can be concentrated on a single enemy.

Under most normal circumstances, I would prefer to quickly focus fire on a single enemy and take each down ASAP, rather than slowly chip away at a horde of foes. In the former, an enemy that is killed that much more quickly cannot retaliate, and I have thus benefited by taking less damage in return.

In the latter, while I may be (arguably) dealing more damage as a whole, I am also taking more damage in return, since I will have that many foes attacking me in the subsequent round. And they still fight every bit as effectively regardless of whether they are at full hp or just 1 hp. This makes sweeping blow useful only as a minion-sweeper, something which is situational at best and downright useless at worst, because to maximize its usefulness, you need your DM to use enough minions, and for them to swarm you all at one go.

This makes sweeping blow somewhat unwieldy. To maximize its potential, the fighter needs to put himself in a rather dangerous and undesirable position (even as a defender, I would prefer to limit his exposure to no more than 2 enemies at any 1 time). Conversely, no such limitations exist with rain of blows. Any time I can reach a foe, I am assured automatically of 2-4 attacks.

Basically, if you compare all the 3rd lv encounter powers a fighter gets, rain of blow's damage output vastly outstrips what the rest are capable of. Maybe not broken, but it still comes across as still being extremely strong.

One issue you aren't considering is that by marking more enemies, the fighter better protects members of her group via the penalty and the threat of Combat Challenge, thereby allowing them to deal with the enemies more efficiently. In my experience, monsters marked by a fighter often pass up OA since the fighter would attack otherwise, so it's easy to get flanking for another melee guy.

Killing one guy is usually better wounding several. On the other hand, wounding several enemies AND locking them down doesn't seem so bad compared to killing one guy but leaving the rest free to move around without penalty.

 

[Runestar]

Killing one guy is usually better wounding several. On the other hand, wounding several enemies AND locking them down doesn't seem so bad compared to killing one guy but leaving the rest free to move around without penalty.

I dunno...from experience, I learnt that it can be possible for someone to be too good at his job. While it might seem like the natural thing to do for a fighter to mark as many foes as he can, what this may end up accomplishing in reality is that it instead encourages them to all turn their attention to the fighter instead, rather than dividing their attention evenly (more or less) amongst the various PCs in the party.

Don't get lulled into a false sense of complacency with the apparently high AC a fighter can muster, good starting hp and lots of surges. The fighter can still be taken down in 1 round by a concentrated and co-ordinated series of attacks. Maybe my overwhelming sense of self-preservation interferes with my ability to play a defender effectively...

 

[jadrax]

So let's take Dance of Steel, Fighter 3, as an example. Do you feel that if you're wielding a heavy blade or polearm, the target is slowed whether or not you hit?

That is how I am playing it, Yes.

Or, for a more obvious example, Silverstep, Fighter 13. There are two Weapon entries, one indented under "Hit" (push target extra squares), and one indented under "Effect" (shift extra squares). Do you feel that if you're wielding a spear or polearm, you can shift the target a number of squares equal to your Dex modifier whether or not you hit?

In that case it seems pretty clear that the Push substitutes for the one square mentioned in the above line. If it activates on a hit like you think, it would then have to push for 1 Square and then for your Dex Modifier?

So basically under the way I read it, it modifies the effect of the Hit, rather than triggering on it. (And therefore, yes, it is always in effect.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

That is how I am playing it, Yes.

Well, at least you're consistent! But I disagree with you.

In that case it seems pretty clear that the Push substitutes for the one square mentioned in the above line. If it activates on a hit like you think, it would then have to push for 1 Square and then for your Dex Modifier?

So basically under the way I read it, it modifies the effect of the Hit, rather than triggering on it. (And therefore, yes, it is always in effect.)

The way I read it, it modifies the effect of the Hit, but only if you hit.

Consider Talon of the Roc, Fighter 13. The Weapon line includes an "also".

"The target also cannot shift" makes no sense unless the Hit happens, where "the target is slowed". If the Weapon line happens regardless of the Hit, it should just say "The target cannot shift", rather than "The target also cannot shift".

Consider Anvil of Doom, Fighter 13. The Weapon entry says "The target is stunned rather than dazed". The dazed effect only occurs on a Hit; it's nonsensical for the Weapon entry to apply except after the Hit it is indented beneath.

Consider Fangs of Steel, Fighter Attack 23. There is a Weapon entry indented under the Attack: Hit entry, and a Weapon entry further indented under the Secondary Attack: Hit entry. If a Weapon entry is globally applicable to the power, rather than being specific to the entry it is indented beneath, why did they repeat an identical Weapon entry beneath each of the two Hit entries?

-Hyp.